If It Were Not For The South, America Would Be Another Canada Or (Horror!) France.

ComtedeMaistre

[ComtedeMaistre]

I had yet another look at the 2000 electoral map, and I was struck by the fact that Bush carried every single state in the South, all by substantial margins. It made me wonder of how American conservatism would be, if the South had succeeded in its tragic War of Independence in the 1860s.

Sure, there are many bastions of solid traditional American conservatism outside the South. The people of the American West, in states like Utah, Montana, Alaska, Colorado, Nebraska and Idaho, are probably the most freedom loving people in the entire country. They are the strongest defenders of the second ammendment right to bear arms, largely because of their outdoors culture of hunting, ranching, and fishing. They are also the strongest defenders of free speech, self-reliance, property rights and are fierce individualists. They hate taxes with such an intensity, it is scary.

Many midwestern regions, are also solidly conservative. The small towns in Indiana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois and Michigan, represent the true heart of middle America. And there a few islands of conservatism in the East, in areas such as New Hampshire and Upstate New York, surrounded by a sea of liberalism.

But if you remove the South from the map, do you think that Northern Bastions of conservatism can hold out against the liberal tidal wave? Gore would have carried the 2000 election in a massive landslide, if it were not for the South.

[wardaddy]

No one is debating that your cities are larger on average and yes that can affect local and even state elections but that does not detract from the fact that whites in the south vote conservative proportionately higher than in the North and that blacks are a higher percentage of our regional population here.

[rdb3]

...and Richmond has aggressively been exorcising its Civil War heritage to try to become some sort of second Indianapolis or Cleveland.

Sounds great to me.

[rdb3]

Why wouldn't blacks have continued to be third or fourth class citizens in the south, continuing the laws that were on the books prior to the war and enacted immediately after it?

There is absolutely no reason to believe that my ancestors would not have remained 3^rd or 4^th class citizens. Hell, they probably wouldn't even have been considered citizens.

[Corin Stormhands]

and Richmond has aggressively been exorcising its Civil War heritage to try to become some sort of second Indianapolis or Cleveland.

Well, that all depends on who you talk to. Richmond's incompetent and corrupt city government/council continues to try to erase Richmond's history and continues advocating throwing billions of dollars into new projects to rennovate downtown. But Virginia's southern heritage (and that is NOT just the Confederacy) is alive and well in the surrounding counties.

The battle continues.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Without the South, the US would be more liberal....CULTURALLY. But I maintain that the rest of the US would be more prosperous and more free market and less socialist than it is today. Why is that? I submit to you all that Southern states as well as certain Western agriculutural states get more funding per capita from the Feds than any other region in the US and pay less taxes to the Federal government per capita than any other region, especially the blue states of New York and California (although the business flight from CA may change that). In fact the South benefits disproportianately from New Deal and Great Society Programs like TVA and Medicaid since it has a higher poverty rate. Also massive government subsidies due to Southern control of Congressional and Senatorial committees means a channeling of much non residtributive government spending to these areas. Therefore current southern prosperity is more due to government spending and socialism-lite than anything else. Without a South, socialism would have never gone national. The Solid South of the old days and the big cities of the North had one thing in common....political patronage, corruption and machines. That is the heart of big government and the civil service. It was this coalition that pur Roosevelt in office and sponsored the New Deal and the Great Society. Without a South, rural voters and city reformers would have gradually taken control of the North at the expense of political machines, much like what has happened since and the north would be a libertarian paradise more or less. Socially very liberal but conservative on economics. Essentially classical liberalism, which is this nation's true political heritage.

[wardaddy]

LOL

You and #3 ought to get a room together.

Blame the South for FDR?

That's a hoot.

Blame us for slavery alone?

Another hoot, ya'll didn't need them....hence all high and mighty by default.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Check the results of the 1932 election. FDR swept the South and the souther congressman and Senators of the era were huge supporters of the New Deal. I am sure you are aware of figures like Huey Long, James Eastland, Al Gore Sr and such. Most pork barrell spending still goes to the South and it is the Northeast, Midwest and the West Coast that is supporting it. Truth hurts, don't it?

[Classicaliberalconservative]

PS I do not blame you guys for slavery alone as all of the colonies was guilty on that, especially the New England shipping companies up until the slave trade was banned when the nation was founded. However I do blame the South for the foot dragging on ending slavery until the 2nd half of the 19th Century.

[wardaddy]

And what do you call the massive transfer of wealth from everyone to build all the projects up north and all the quixotic urban renewal in your shining cities?

Yes...you may blame us for agricultural subsidies....along with the midwest and great plains and Kali as well. That transfer of wealth urban areas are paying for.

Actually I blame Massachusetts.

They spawned Eli Whitney who with his dandy little cotton gin made cotton King and hence an explosion of slavery and all the other crap that has come down the pike since.

And that makes about as much sense as your diatribe that because rural Southerners supported FDR in 1932 that we are somehow to blame for your cultural and economic blight.

Yea...as you say...the truth hurts doesn't it?

GOP,

It would appear that the forum has more than one John Brown incarnate...lol

[wardaddy]

However I do blame the South for the foot dragging on ending slavery until the 2nd half of the 19th Century

Well I hope you find comfort in that. I guess Cuba, Brasil, Arabia, and Central Africa are on your shite list as well for the same reason since they took even longer and some even still practice it today. If I'm not mistaken, the last slaves technically freed where in border states allied with the Union....some time after the Emancipation....with typical Yankee hypocrisy.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

I have met Frenchmen who sneer at the French Revolution of 1789 and the tricolor, and prefer to fly the ancient white flag of the Bourbons. ...as they are led up the steps to the guillotine before being gibbeted.

[ought-six]

There is a lot of truth to this thesis. The South is manifestly conservative, and thank God it is!

[ought-six]

"I don't know about conservatism, but American music wouldn't be worth a damn."

Ain't that the truth!

[ought-six]

"That's a laugh. Socialist presidents like Wilson and FDR had their base in the South, not the North. They carried the South almost totally in their elections."

The only reason the South voted for Wilson and FDR is because they were both Democrats. The South, up until the 1960s, was STAUNCHLY in the Democrats camp: A Republican just didn't have a chance in the South. (One of the reasons the South was so bitterly opposed to the Republicans was because of the Republican influence and control in the federal government, which resulted in Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War; and, perhaps more offensive to the South, Reconstruction. )

[ought-six]

Funny that you say Jefferson Davis had contempt for the Constitution, yet you have on many occasions trumpted the virtue of Abraham Lincoln, who CLEARLY had contenmpt for the Constitution. Lincoln, as president, took an oath of office to uphold and defend the Constitution, and he did neither. The most glaring example of that is that slavery WAS LEGAL under the Constitution, and Lincoln, as president, had the duty and obligation to uphold it UNTIL the Constiution was amended to end slavery (which didn't happen until AFTER the War, with the ratification of the 13th Amendment). By openly trying to dismantle and illegitimize slavery, he violated the Constitution! Don't get me wrong about slavery: It was (and is) a terrible institution, at least from our modern eyes (it was common and acceptable throughout history, though, but that doesn't make it any more palatable). And remember, the North had slaves up until the early 1800s, but because of the climate and soil the need for slave labor in the North was minimal, so it was no big deal for the North to abandon the practice; had the climate and soil been more productive in the North, slavery would have remained viable there, as well.

[Non-Sequitur]

Funny that you say Jefferson Davis had contempt for the Constitution, yet you have on many occasions trumpted the virtue of Abraham Lincoln, who CLEARLY had contenmpt for the Constitution.

Odd that you continuously condemn Lincoln for what you claim are violations of the Constitution while at the same time ignoring the contempt that Jeff Davis had for the confederate constitution.

How did Lincoln violate the Constitution in regards to slavery? You need to read the Emancipation Proclamation again. Lincoln didn't end slavery in that document, didn't even pretend to end slavery. He used his power as Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military, and as a move necessary to put down the rebellion, to declare all slaves to be free in specific areas of the country. He didn't declare slavery itself illegal. He may have demonized the institution, but current presidents have condemned abortion and have used their office to do all that they could to weaken the availability of abortion, and they didn't violate the Constitution by doing that.

[Ditto]

Oh...by the way, the rest of the country? Y'all are welcome. Now come down here and spend some money, but please, don't move here, we got enough of y'all Yankees clutterin' thangs up already. :)

Ever considered the fact that most of those millions of Yankees who moved south in the 50s and 60s because of their work in the military or defence industries were solid conservatives and finally allowed the GOP in the south to beat out the old corrupt yellow dog rats for the first time in 100 years? Names like Gingrich and Barr come to mind and at least a dozen of my old friends.

[Classicaliberalconservative]

Ever consider that it was Southern legislators who directed all that money to their region and contributed to the Sun Belt migration? Thus shooting many holes in the theory that without the South the North would look like France or Canada.

[putupon]

continues advocating throwing billions of dollars into new projects to rennovate downtown. But Virginia's southern heritage (and that is NOT just the Confederacy) is alive and well in the surrounding counties.

BUMP to that.

Richmond is a great place to live (outside of); loads of people who still love the traditions.

Who cares what the fools in City Hall do?

They raise the food tax again to pay for the stoopid expanded entertainment center, like Hip Hop fans are going to leave any money behind, excepting whats found in pockets of the shooting victims.

It's alright by me though, I may get some of it like I did off 6th Street Market Place in '84 and the Convention Center Expansion in '01.

Every dime of of it a waste, but I got mine.

When it does come to entertainment, they give us in the surrounding counties plenty for free. Nothing at Blockbuster you want to see? The City Clownncil Meetings are good for a laugh.

And then there are always the trials. Hedgepeth's is on my anniversary, I wonder if the wifey wants to go?

Why waste time and energy worrying about about the City of Richmond? The place is just another Lost Cause. Let everything inside the limits rot, you can't smell it from my house, and the bad publicity make help keep some of the migrating Yankees from settleing here.

BTW, did you hear they had another drive-by this morning? 3 women and a kid were hit, one of the women may not make it.

[Corin Stormhands]

Just heard about the drive by a few minutes ago on WRVA.

BTW, check the Sunday Letters to the Editor. The last one (What does she have against Chesterfield) is mine.