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To: Happy2BMe
In American Society, who most would desire to see them eradicated from public view?

This is a purposely misleading statement. Public view? Anyone can post the Ten Commandments in view of the public:

Mount them in front of your church.
Wear them on your shirt.
Post them on your lawn.
Put them on a billboard.
Put them on TV, on the radio, full page ads in the newspaper.
Stand on a soapbox on a public street and read them to anyone who walks by.
Etc...

Let's be honest here: what we're discussing is posting the Commandments on government property, using taxpayer funded recourses as a forum for religion.

To claim that keeping the commandments out of government property is akin to keeping them from public view is ludicrous. It asserts that you so incredibly feeble and dependent on government that you cannot even speak your mind or convey a message without its help. Are you that helpless?

The true question here is should government property be used to promote religion. Now that the true question is made clear, debate away.

6 posted on 08/21/2003 12:39:11 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: freeeee
I attended 5th grade classes at a public school in Alabama back in the late 70s. One day we had a visitor come to our class and hand out little pocket Bibles to all the students. I think in various parts of the country, the regional culture predominates and they get away with stuff because they are the majority. Is it appropriate to hand out Bibles in public school? How is it less appropriate than posting scripture in the courthouse?
9 posted on 08/21/2003 12:43:38 PM PDT by Huck
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To: freeeee
I suppose if you wore a t-shirt with The Ten Commandments on it you might just get booted out of a jury pool.
10 posted on 08/21/2003 12:43:42 PM PDT by OrioleFan
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To: freeeee
The true question here is should government property be used to promote religion. Now that the true question is made clear, debate away.

Wrong! The monument is NOT on public property to "promote" religion (which, by the way, is not something even mentioned in the Constitution except as to limiting Congess's authority to pass any laws to "establish" or "prevent the free excerise thereof"), so your "true question" is wrong on its face.

The statue merely promotes decency, compassion, morality, and guidance in the conduct of a person's life, placed in a location FUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO IN MAJORITY HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ITS PRESENCE.

NO ONE IS FORCED TO READ OR ABIDE BY IT (though it can be argued that they SHOULD).

The court has over-stepped its bounds on this for sure, and ruling it must be removed is beyond reasonable.

16 posted on 08/21/2003 12:50:21 PM PDT by traditional1
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To: freeeee
The true question here is should government property be used to promote religion.

No. The God of athiesm shouldn't be acknowledged above all others.

17 posted on 08/21/2003 12:50:23 PM PDT by concerned about politics ("He who controls communications rules the world." - Adolf Hitler)
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To: freeeee
The true question here is should government property be used to promote religion. Now that the true question is made clear, debate away.

This is not the question, but only a diversion. If government is not free to acknowledge GOD then the Constitution and the Bill of Rights mean nothing. Our right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are God-given rights, no government can take that away, or can they?

19 posted on 08/21/2003 12:50:58 PM PDT by PLOM...NOT!
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To: freeeee
Put them on a billboard.

Great idea! An abortion poll showed 90% of Americans believe there is a God, but not all practice. That ought to open their eyes to the athiest facism debate.

26 posted on 08/21/2003 12:56:49 PM PDT by concerned about politics ("He who controls communications rules the world." - Adolf Hitler)
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To: freeeee
Don't touch a dollar bill, you might get religion.
30 posted on 08/21/2003 1:01:13 PM PDT by ijcr
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To: freeeee
Let's be honest here: what we're discussing is posting the Commandments on government property, using taxpayer funded recourses as a forum for religion.

Let's be honest? I wish you would.

To have this farce going on under the guise of the first ammendment is an affont to anyone with a shred of honesty.

Let's go through some of the ammendments and see just how plain english can be twisted to mean anything.

1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Translation: The courts should strenuously stamp out all displays of religion on taxpayer property, and ensure that no one ever utters a religious word on public property. Freedom of speech shall only apply to pornographers, homosexuals, and America-hating liberals. Political speech must be strictly regulated. Any church that offers an unkind word about a democrat shall be shut down immediately.

2. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Translation: You can keep your guns until we say otherwise.

5. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Translation: Kick in all the doors you want boys, but make sure to wear ski masks when you are doing it and don't bother checking the address.

10. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Translation: All power is vested in the courts. If the courts say day is night, everyone shall go home to bed. If the courts define marriage as only occurring between a hairless midget and 7 foot transsexual, so be it.

41 posted on 08/21/2003 1:09:48 PM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: freeeee
The true question here is should government property be used to promote religion. Now that the true question is made clear, debate away.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

promote = To raise to a more important or responsible job or rank.;To advance to the next higher grade ; To contribute to the progress or growth of; further ; To urge the adoption of; advocate ; To attempt to sell or popularize by advertising or publicity ; To help establish or organize.

Congress = The national legislative body of the United States, consisting of the Senate and the House of Representatives.

Shall = Something that will take place or exist in the future ;Something, such as an order, promise, requirement, or obligation ;The will to do something or have something take place

Make =To cause to exist or happen; bring about; create ; To bring into existence by shaping, modifying, or putting together material; construct ; To form by assembling individuals or constituents ; To change from one form or function to another

no =Used to express refusal, denial, disbelief, emphasis, or disagreement ; Not at all; not by any degree.

Law =A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority. A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.

respecting = To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.

an = This word is properly an adjective, but is commonly called the indefinite article. It is used before nouns of the singular number only, and signifies one, or any, but somewhat less emphatically.

establishment = The act of establishing. The condition or fact of being established. Something established, as:
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff. A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school. often Establishment An established social order, as:
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity. Often used with the. That which is established; as: (a) A form of government, civil or ecclesiastical; especially, a system of religion maintained by the civil power; as, the Episcopal establishment of England. (b) A permanent civil, military, or commercial, force or organization. (c) The place in which one is permanently fixed for residence or business; residence, including grounds, furniture, equipage, etc.; with which one is fitted out; also, any office or place of business, with its fixtures; that which serves for the carrying on of a business; as, to keep up a large establishment; a manufacturing establishment.

of = Associated with or adhering to.

religion = Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. It was there before we were
It was there before the government was[But our government was established around it]
Its not being advertised !
Its not being sold !
Its not being established ! [It already was !]
You can't advance it to a higher grade [Its already to the highest grade it can be unless you think your better than God!]
No one stands in front of it and and advocates or pushes you to adopt it !
Its already Popular and its already organized in many fashions and sects just choose one!

No this is clearly an attack on God and religion as well as free speech

The first amendment was created so that govenment in its [so called ] infinant wisdom does not create its own religion and force you to follow it!

Its plain and simple but for some reason organizations that are supposed to be for civil rights like the A.C.L.U. and others want God out of EVERYTHING including the basic establisment of our countrys own founding fathers basic rules for keeping this country free.

134 posted on 08/21/2003 4:06:56 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK ("Lord make me fast and accurate")
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To: freeeee
OK, lets be clearer.

The establishment clause only talks about Congress making no law that promotes one religion over another.

From that basis, let's take a new look at all of it.

Let's also consider the context Jefferson wrote that in, "It neither breaks my back, nor picks my pocket what another man believes." Not bad conditions overall - don't make me contribute to your state religion, and your religion better not physically affect me in any way.

NOW let's have a debate. No amendment has been turned upside down in its meaning and context like the first amendment.
211 posted on 08/25/2003 10:58:03 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: freeeee
While The Constitution specifically prohibits, the establishment of any particualr religion as the "state religion", the Framers, the Founding Fathers, and the signers of the Declaration of Independence were NOT Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or Taoists. The Constitution was underscored by a belief in Christianity, the Founding Fathers were almost to a man Christians, and this country was settled by Christians who came here to escape religious persecution. Now, 227 years later, it is the Christians who are again the ones being persecuted, and forced by the government to subborn their beliefs to the will of the State. Doesn't that seem just a bit ironic to you?
212 posted on 08/25/2003 11:02:37 AM PDT by nobdysfool (All men are born Arminians...the Christian ones that grow up become Calvinists...)
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