Carelessness and Casualness in worship

The Middletown Bible Church ^ | 08/19/03 | various authors

[RaceBannon]

You teach that holiness is defined by the quality of your clothing.

No, You twist my words. I say that the heart attitude is reflected through the way a person dresses. If a person has respect for the place and person, their dress reflects that.

I would bet that 99% of the people reading this would put on a shirt and tie to have dinner at the White House with GWB.

Yet, I am afraid that less than 30% would wear a shirt and tie to stand before a Holy God in worship on Sunday.

Which is more important?

[Chancellor Palpatine]

What is wrong with standing a small child in a pew to see better? Isn't the point to be training them in your set of beliefs, and isn't understanding what is going on important enough to you to accomodate them when they're too short to see and hold interest?

[RaceBannon]

But on the way home, there's a good chance I may be listening to some Randy Travis or Petra on the drive

You yourself recognize there is a difference between the world's music and what is supposed to be Godly worship music!

That is what I was trying to get across to some people on the other thread, they do not understand the difference between music styles when worshipping.

I do not 'listen' to any worldly music, but I do have the radio on just for noise, trying to listen to talk radio, changing the channel when something comes on that I would rather not listen to music wise. We dont have any good Christian Music stations around here and my CD player is broke!...(sigh)

[Elsie]

I don't want guitars, drums, and the like in service.

Ok......

---

Psalms 150

1. Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.
2. Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre,
4. praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
5. praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
6. Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD.

[RaceBannon]

Never mind that was all the old man owned. He was a share cropper with 6 children and no wife to help.

Huge difference in what this messaage is trying to teach. If all you own is what you have to wear, God knows that and honors what you do to look your best.

However, the Pastor should have offered to buy him a suit.

[TexanToTheCore]

Man oh man, where to begin..

This country has experienced four revival periods and each revival creates its own music and this one, the Fourth Great Awakening, is no different. The music that we call CCM is the music of this great revival and is awakening many hearts to Jesus's salvation. This music, unlike most of the music that is in your hymnals is listened to at home and on the road by millions of Christians who love to hear of God's Grace and his love for us.

Many of the "Official and Certified" hymns written after about 1750 or so can be somewhat difficult to sing as the voice parts are uniformly keyed to the upper part of the singers register. This can be a real problem for someone like myself who is a ...ahem...Basso Profundo. It is extremely difficult for me to sing the bass voice accurately as it is simply out of my range.

Much of the CCM music (like other popular forms) is written in the middle register and is quite easy to sing for someone who is not musically trained. For those who have the training and the technique , it is possible to "unload" and really create some excitement in church. As you can tell, I love Christian Contemporary and it fills my house, through the radio and albums. Like many of my denomination, I listen to Christian Contemporary all the time.

The other musical form that I truly love is Shapenote or Sacred Harp music. Written in a form that harkens back to the baroque, it is polyphonic and is of stunning beauty. Sadly, other than rearranged versions of Amazing Grace, you will never hear it in churches. It would be too controversial, you see, even though it was popular from the middle 1600's to perhaps 1900 or so. The composers of this style of music had a fine appreciation for the bass voice and used it in ways that are never seen now.

Rick Warren, Pastor and author has an excellant take on this new music. He states in his book "The Purpose Driven Church" that Christian Contemporary differs from much of the previous music in that the latter hymns are about God, the former are love songs directly to God. I agree.

Well, that is my two cents worth, now you may light the flame throwers..........

[RaceBannon]

Training them to stand on the pews is a way of NOT training them to respect the building where you worship I believe.

It also shows that the parent does not respect the place you worship.

After all, you don't teach your kids to stand on chairs at home to watch tv, do you?

[RaceBannon]

What we havent covered here in any detail is, it isn't the instruments, it is the music the instruments play.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

It isn't the same as watching TV, and they know it.

And amazingly, now that they're tall enough to see, they don't stand on the pews anymore - plus, they like being closer to the front, so they can continue with less obstructed views.

[RaceBannon]

If you think we are in revival, you are seriously deluded.

Sorry, but that statement is so wrong, it cannot be measured how wrong.

This country is in no manner or way or shape in revival. We are heading straight to judgement, we are more sinful in every measure, we see no change of lives across towns and businesses, we also see no blessing from God upon our nation, instead we are ina time of war, bad economy, and immorality like this nationa has never seen.

Next, from each revival time we went through, we still sing those hymns, dont we? My church does. CCM churches have thrown all those songs out.

[TexanToTheCore]

Since I have been on this thread for nigh onto ten minutes without incident I will also venture into the clothing controversy.

I am a worship leader, a choir singer and I wear a nice looking shirt and a pair of black Dockers when I sing the two services each Sunday and maybe a third at a different church on Sunday evening. Why?

Because I have the training and God given skill to sing with all my strength, with everything ounce of effort that I can muster and when I come down out of the choir loft, I am sweating.

[TexanToTheCore]

We aren't in revival eh?

Last Sunday, August 16th, 250 people came forward during the invitation to be baptized and join our church. If your church isn't doing this work, maybe you should consider a new church.

As for a secular review of this current revival see Robert William Fogel, "The Fourth Great Awakening and the Future of Egalitarianism". Mr Fogel is an Economist and his analysis of the current revival period is dead on.

Take heart, people are coming to Jesus in stunning numbers. WooHoo!!!

[Graybeard58]

"However, the Pastor should have offered to buy him a suit".

Maybe you are unfamiliar with rural churches in the south in the 50s. The underpaid preacher was probably doing well to buy his own suit and likely didn't see a need for my father-in-law to wear a suit.
My point was that it shouldn't have mattered to ANYONE what the man wore as long as it was clean and not indecent.
The ignorant but hurtful remarks of one person in the church left an indelible impression on the lives of three people which has lasted for nearly a half century.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.


Robert Burns

[billbears]

Hey as I said for me it comes from my upbringing. I attend a church that tried it a few times with the youth band during service. How do I say it? It didn't 'feel' right. The kids were worshipping I guess in their own way but when you've got a congregation with the majority of the people over 50 and most of the rest that attend the church because it's an 'old' Southern Baptist country church, it didn't come across as worship. It came across as noise in a place that was meant to be quiet and honored

[natewill]

68. The Exhaustion Test - After going through all the other tests, do I still have time to do this?

Ha!

[Green Knight]

When people are to be guests at the White House for a meeting with the President, they dress up—suits and ties for the men; pretty dresses for the ladies. Appropriate dress indicates appropriate respect. When the President speaks to a joint session of congress, the gallery guests as well as the lawmakers are all dressed in their best.

Does not our Lord Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church, deserve as much consideration and respect as our President? Does not your pastor deserve that much respect for his message?

So because I don't own or can't afford a suit, I'm not welcome at church? Good to know. Guess I'll have to cancel my invitation to the White House, too, as I don't have the appropriate attire.

[TexanToTheCore]

"Next, from each revival time we went through, we still sing those hymns, dont we? My church does. CCM churches have thrown all those songs out."

If you check the dates of the lyrics, you will find that most of them were written between the middle and late eigteen hundreds to about 1925, which corresponds to the Third Great Awakening. How do I know? Because I hand out and sing from just about all denomination's "Official and Certified" hymnals in nursing homes when I and my wife lead musical worship.

In general, you do not sing many of the hymns from the first or second revival periods. The musical forms would be hard to sing and I think you would find that the average christian's view of God has changed dramatically over the last several hundred years and many of those hymns would not be appreciated in today's churches.

[nmh]

You point to an extreme to validate causal, disrectful dress to worship. The gentleman you referred to was impoverished. Had the person who offensively told him to dress better knew of his circumstances, than this request was over the top in snobbery. If they did want to help the gentlemen then possible buying some clothes for him or buying something from him might have allowed him to dress better but to insult him because of his attire when he couldn't afford to wear better is inexcusable. I'm sure God had no trouble with it from your description of this man.

Having said all that, the MAJORITY of people are NOT impoverished. It's sheer laziness and disrespect to God. These folks will be dressed to the nines to go to an interview or a formal party but when it comes to going to church they look like they just rolled out of bed, hair wet from showering with something yo'd wear to clean up the yard. Better yet, if it's a young girl, she might have LOW jeans on that show off her belly button or in colder weather, snug black leather pants.

[Graybeard58]

"You point to an extreme to validate causal, disrectful dress to worship"

It was not my intention to validate casual or disrespectful attire and I apologize if my post conveyed that message.I just mean that people should be mindful of what they say, words can be a powerful force. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Prayer being a powerful force, I am asking for prayers for my son Steve who left for Ft. Lewis, Washington yesterday and from there in three weeks is going to Iraq.

[TexanToTheCore]

"Training them to stand on the pews is a way of NOT training them to respect the building where you worship I believe. " So, RB, I am just guessing here, but I suspect that you wouldn't approve of standing the child in the pew and having her or she clap and move back and forth to the music.

I think standing the child in the per is a great idea.