Carelessness and Casualness in worship

The Middletown Bible Church ^ | 08/19/03 | various authors

[Quix]

I can't believe that the all loving humble God on The Cross is a megalomaniac.

I believe God's jealousy for His Glory with us

IS FOR OUR BENEFIT.

He's not about to have a repeat of satan rebelling against Him and trying to be God.

God wants us to get the order very extremely right and never forget it.


just IMHO.

[HiTech RedNeck]

The citation of the Satan theory, as I recall (and yes it was from the Puritan author) is in "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" by Albert Edersheim. A Jewish Christian who wrote the book a little over a century ago. He was noting the similarity of a rabbinic doctrine to Edwards'. I'll have to dig up that book and find the reference. I hope it gives enough information about where to find it in Edwards.

[Theo]

I guess the point that I'm trying to bring out is that the Creator has objectively and accurately assessed the He is the most perfect being in existence, and that all things are evaluated in light of Him, and that all good things come from Him, and that the ultimate source of joy is Him.

His sharing that information is a revealing of His glory. And it is wrong to obscure that information. So He wants that happy news to be proclaimed, and He is jealous that that information be heard....

Megalomaniac? Cool word, but I don't see how the Creator could be considered that....

[Destructor]

"One trend I have noted in local churches in recent years is carelessness. Carelessness in dress. Many people attend the house of God attired the same way they would dress for a rodeo or a football game."

Unlike the so-called "Christian" fashion police I stay after church to clean up after the fellowship meal. My dress for church is usually jeans and a T-shirt, because I know that I'll be working in the kitchen after the service.

I would suspect that the people that write articles like this one can't get home quick enough after the fellowship meal is over!

As the Bible says, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

[RaceBannon]

It amazes me how all the defenders of a weak worship service and rock music in the church twist the words I speak.

I said no such thing as you accused me of.

What I was saying is that people who claim to be saved should look the part, act the part, and believe the part for the sake of their own witness before men and angels.

But all you can do is take the idea of looking decent in church, take the idea of listening to Godly music instead of worldly music and make it into something I never suggested: Some form of outward judging. What I have constantly saying is: If a person is truly changed, there should be some evidences of it.

Wow, you guys are so marching in lock step on this, it just proves another point; that most of the church does not even know what it means to behave in the Church of God anymore.

I have to admit, I am stunned.

(Rev 3:15 KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

(Rev 3:16 KJV) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

(Rev 3:17 KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

(Rev 3:18 KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

(Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

[HiTech RedNeck]

God has to lavish an utterly ridiculous amount of continuous love upon sinners to bring them safely into heaven. Because sinners still have a sin nature until they die. We live every moment by the mercy of the cross.

[Theo]

I found a reference to Jonathan Edwards in Edersheim's book:

http://www.graciouscall.org/books/edersheim/lifetime/lta_13.html

I haven't looked it over yet, but am interested to do so. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. My "prejudice" (for what it's worth, without having read it yet) is that Edwards is being misunderstood, or that he was saying something in his 1700s-speak that could be interpreted wrongly. But perhaps his doctrine was wrong! :-)

[bets]

Anyone ever heard of giving God your best? Also, grooming is a courtesty to others (John the Baptist was an exception). For example, tucking in a t-shirt shows that you respect others enough to take the time to get dressed and not be sloppy. (don't flame me, I understand that some people due to weight or build can't tuck in -- ok, understand we're not talking judgementalism or legalism here - just basic grooming)

Also, for the best witnessing, a person shouldn't dress so that their outward appearance is a distraction to the person they're talking with. For instance, at our Bible College there was a girl w/dreadlocks. They were huge and overtook all other features about her. Certainly as Christians, IF WE WERE PERFECT, we wouldn't let it distract us. But we ARE human. And the lost person she may be talking with is not going to be focused on the spiritual to begin with. So, as much as possible, a person who is truly concerned about being humble, not seeking attention, and wanting to reach the person they're talking with, it's best if their outward dress and grooming is not a distraction.

(And BTW, nobody was legalistic at our school -- no one ever mentioned her hair or told her to cut it. After the 1st year of school, she decided on her own to do that, and it's beautful and undistracting now. Same story for a student who came to school w/a tongue post. No one said a word, and after a year it was gone. This was just wisdom on their part, because the most important thing to both of them was to get through to the lost (not to draw attention to their bodies.)

[tx_eggman]

Agreed, but we were created for the praise of His glory (Eph 1 '... in order that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be fro the praise of His glory ...'

We are the pinnacle of His creation and destined to rule it with Him as His sons and Daughters.

What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? ou made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. Is messanic, but it's about you and me too. Think about it .. at this moment there is a fully human, human being seated on the throne of God and we are going to be just like Him.

But we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

[HiTech RedNeck]

How do you know it's "weak"? I can't tell, from the description. It may be very powerful.

[SpinnerWebb]

If the body of christ didn't encumber itself with huge payrolls and mortgage payments, money wouldn't be the driving force. The resources of believers could be used to meet the needs of believers and to finance those known personally to be doing the work of proclaiming Christ to those who have not heard.

Another great contemporary Christian song comes to mind: I Can Only Imagine

=)

[Theo]

Here's the relevant quote, I think. It's actually a quote of Edersheim, only the 'single quotes' being what Edwards said:

"After describing how 'Satan, before his fall, was the chief of all the angels ... nay, ... the Messiah or Christ (!), as he was the Anointed, so that in the respect, Jesus Christ is exalted unto his place in heaven'; and that 'Lucifer or Satan, while a holy angel ... was a type of Christ,' the great American divine explains his fall as follows: 'But when it was revealed to him, high and glorious as he was, that he must be a ministering spirit ot the race of mankind which he had seen newly created, which appeared so feeble, mean, and despicable, of vastly inferior not only to him, the prince of the angels, and head of the created universe, but also to the inferior angels, and that he must be subject to one of that race which should hereafter be born, he could not bear it, This occasioned his fall' (Tractate on 'The Fall of the Angels,' Works, vol. ii. pp. 608, 609, 610)." I'm interested to know what the words were before "... the Messiah or Christ" -- Edersheim cut those words out (hence, the elipsis)....

Edwards uses the phrase "a type of Christ" to describe the pre-fallen Satan, and then goes on to explain himself. The explanation seems non-heretical....

[HiTech RedNeck]

Megalomaniac? Cool word, but I don't see how the Creator could be considered that....

I think the point may be, that God is totally relational in His being. The Son, the Father, the Holy Spirit -- none of them glorify themselves without somehow involving one or more of the others.

[Ol' Sox]

What I have constantly saying is: If a person is truly changed, there should be some evidences of it.

Race, what people have been saying back to you is that the evidence of change is in a person's spirit, and is displayed not by the clothes they wear, but by the love they show.

[tx_eggman]

Hmmm...

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

I understand your point of view, but all I ask for is that fellow worshipers be dressed decently and if possible clean.
Looking back over the years I think the new relaxed attitude about attire for church began when women were finally allowed to wear slacks to church. Maybe this is before your time, but that was a big issue once.
And, at about the same time there was a decline in church attendance for other reasons.
To be fair, Americans don't seem to dress up for anything anymore, except weddings.

[LTCJ]

take the idea of looking decent in church, take the idea of listening to Godly music instead of worldly music
begging the question
... and make it into something I never suggested

Is that not exactly what you are are suggesting?

Ipse dixit. On what basis?

[tx_eggman]

So we're all going to hell, Race has spoken ..

Back at'cha buddy ...

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

[HiTech RedNeck]

The doom-and-gloom predictions he quotes are for the church as a body, not individual Christians.

I don't think, this side of heaven, Race will ever consider a church that uses rock style music as anything more than lukewarm. We'll see. The proof is in the pudding. If it remains vibrant for years then obviously Race mispredicted it. I'm learning not to second-guess the Holy Spirit, whether in charismatic or non, Calvinist or Arminian, or born-again Catholic or Orthodox, electric guitar or antique organ.

[Theo]

Here's Jonathan Edwards' original writing:

http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/works2/htm/xii.ii.htm

As I thought, Edersheim is playing fast and loose with Edwards' words, cutting out phrases and either marking the resulting sentences with elispis ... or not including elipsis at all. The part that refers to Satan as "Messiah" is explained by Edwards, but is entirely cut out of Edersheim's "quote":

"Hence learn that Satan before his fall was the Messiah or Christ, as he was the anointed. The word anointed is radically the same in Hebrew as the word Messiah: so that in this respect our Jesus is exalted into his place in heaven."

Edwards, admittedly, is writing some at-face-value weird stuff. But if the root "annointed" is the same as the root for "Messiah," then the "annointed" Satan (pre-fallen) was a type of "Messiah." But definition. Of course, Satan's fallen, and is hell-bound. And of course, Jesus is God incarnate, our loving Savior, as well as annointed Messiah....