United States v Roy Moore: The Most Important States' Rights Case in Decades

PatriotPetitions.US/Federalist.com ^ | 8-15-03

[Windcatcher]

There was once a high school bully who gave me and a bunch of my friends a real hard time. For *years*. For revenge, I began the following plan:

Our school lockers used padlocks that we had to purchase from the school bookstore. Each lock had a keyhole on the back for the dean's/principal's master key. For any given year (actually a set of years), all locks used the same master key for practicality.

I bought an extra lock of the same series and completely disassembled it, including cutting the master key cylinder in half and removing the tumblers. I bought a blank key from a local hardware store, and over the course of two weeks I managed to file it down until it could open my good (unopened) lock. I now had a master key that could open at least *half the lockers in the school*.

The school wasn't filled to capacity, and the second floor was filled with unused lockers. The plan was simple: give the key to a willing volunteer, who would take some critical books from the bully's locker (*right before final exams*) and place them in an unused locker at random. Then simply walk away. His books have disappeared. Boo hoo.

Unfortunately, the bully must have lost his original lock and bought another, because his lock was of the next series that was issued when we were juniors or seniors. I hurriedly bought another, newer lock and proceed to make a second key. I had a rough prototype going when--I ran out of time. We graduated (blast).

No, I didn't do time as a POW in a Stalag Luft camp.

[Catspaw]

What IS Moores's defense, if not on historical grounds? I've only read SOME of these cases. (obviously not the findings on this one) The successful ones were won on historical grounds.

The same arguments Moore is making to the media are the ones that are in these court documents.  I haven't found an on-line source for any of the briefs submitted by the plaintiff and defendant.

These are the opinions, decisions, orders and injunctions in the Moore case.  They're far too lengthy to post in their entirety.

 The Ten Commandments Monument Opinion:   PDF, Word, WordPerfect
          Appendices:    A B & D C

Final Judgment and Injunction:                      PDF, Word, WordPerfect
Stay Order:                                                  PDF, Word, WordPerfect

11th Cir. Opinion (Glassroth v. Moore) (July 1, 2003)

Final Judgment Glassroth vs Moore, August 5, 2003:                      PDF, Word, WordPerfect

[F16Fighter]

"[A]ll so Roy Moore could do a fundraising stunt for his televangelist buddies at Coral Ridge (affiliated with Paul and Jan Crouch)."

Yeah, yeah -- It's those d@mn Evangelist Christians from Alabama faking patriotism of their American Founding Fathers'Judeo-Christian heritage. This latest theory of yours is absolutely comical.

As is your modus operandi at FR, you can always be counted on to take a cheap shot or swipe at Christians or what you perceive as conservatives...

Thanks for never disappointing.

[detsaoT]

CP, I've seen you quote a $125 million dollar number on all of these threads. What is your source which indicates that this is TAXPAYER moneys? I have seen fundraising programs on many Christian networks (television and radio) seeking donations to his legal defense. How certain are you that these were not his PRIVATE funds which were spent? Quote your sources, please.

[Robert_Paulson2]

actually I don't want to cut and paste...
and I think your three point analysis of what the founders said vs. what they wrote, vs. what they did in their private lives, was one of the most cogent, concise summaries I have ever seen.

it explains a lot about why we cannot reconcile a lot of different books written by a lot of men, who precisely quoted from diaries, letters and speeches.

thanks for posting it.

[Robert_Paulson2]

kennedy is on their network regularly and appears with them, side by side on their shows from time to time as a guest host... he also pays them a percentage of the take on his tv program's grosses...

to say this isn't any form of an association is disingenuous.

[Catspaw]

He has the makings of becoming a martyr for the cause of...fundraising ;-)Moore knows his theatre.Your last line describes the tactics, and is a typical refuge, for media whores who have rolled the dice and lost yet expect others to pick up the costs.

I tend to disagree. I think he has tunnel vision, the kind of tunnel vision that someone who's overly involved in a case can get. I've seen cases where the plaintiff or the defendant is absolutely convinced of their argument and can't believe that the judge (and in criminal cases, the jury) in the case would rule against him or her because they absolutely believe--and usually have associates who absolutely support him or her--that they're so persuasive, so convincing, so compelling that they will be able to bend the court to their will--competely ignoring the other side. When they lose, they blame the judge or judges. They blame the court system. They blame the DA. They blame the other side's lawyers. They swear they're going to take it to the supreme court. They just cannot accept the fact that they've lost. Even if they go all the way to the supreme court and lose, they'll file lawsuits aplenty, litigating the matter to death, because they just cannot accept defeat. Some finally give up and move on. Some completely wig out. Some will corner you anywhere (I've gotten cornered at the meat counter at the supermarket) to talk about Their Case Their Case Their Case.

I've seen it in a custody cases from hell, I've seen it in murder cases, I've seen it in employment disputes, I've seen it in civil cases, I've even seen it in a zoning dispute over a fence.

[First Amendment]

It's interesting that the PC crowd forces us to follow their own commandments.

1. Thou shalt not utter the word "fag" unless thou beist a fag.

2. Thou shalt not place any references to any religion in any public place, even it be a shopping mall or city park.

3. Thou shalt not wear a garment espousing that the covenant of marriage belongeth only to one man and one woman, lest one deviant taketh offense.

4. It shall be the law of the land that freedom of speech meaneth the naked dancing of women with poles; emporiums offering for sale every manner of filth, and "Gay Pride Parades" with false nuns humping one another.

5. Thou shalt not understand that free speech alloweth one to wear religious symbols unto the state workplace, or that a teacher may have a Bible in the classroom, or that a student shall read a Bible story as his favorite.

6. No one shall publicly state that a "family" means a husband, wife and children, lest one deviant and his dog taketh offense.

7. The name of God must not be uttered on penalty of lawsuit; but to villify the name of God is a pious and worthy act.

8. Those reprobates who consider moral values absolute and unchangeable shall be forced to attend "sensitivity training" until their reprobate morals are properly undone.

9. It shall be a sacrament to tear unborn babes from the wombs of their mothers.

10. Can anyone think of a tenth?

[First Amendment]

. It will be time to look for a different place to live.

No, it will be time to make this a different place to live.

[First Amendment]

All we have to do is look around us to see how right he was. The alternative to stripping away our morality and encouraging unbridled passion is a totalitarian regime that regulates every area of our lives because we'll have allowed ourselves to be stripped of the ability to control our own behavior.

I like this quote:

"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites--in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity;--in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption;--in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere: and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds can not be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke

[GOPcapitalist]

11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Ed Carnes, who ruled against Chief Justice Moore: "If Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore's Ten Commandments monument were allowed to stand, it would mean a massive revision of how the courts have interpreted the First Amendment for years."

Even though many leftist judges have ruled the same as Carnes, his statement is not at all accurate in other cases. There was a similar lawsuit to remove the 10 commandments monument from the Texas capitol lawn about a year ago. It lost in federal district court and the monument still stands. Moore and his defenders should cite it as precedent for this one.

[newguy357]

$125,000,000.00 of Alabama taxpayer money went to pay for legal expenses and "consultants", all so Roy Moore could do a fundraising stunt for his televangelist buddies at Coral Ridge (affiliated with Paul and Jan Crouch). Who did it go to? On what? Who was controlling the invoices? Are a bunch of cracker lawyers and preacher types living an extravagant lifestyle courtesy of the taxpayers of Alabama?

And if they are, what role does the federal government have in correcting this problem? Oh that's right, none. It's up to the people of Alabama.

[cpforlife.org]

Some thoughts: The Monument in question is not only of the Ten Commandments. On the sides are the Declaration and the Preamble to the Constitution, as well as other historical documents. Anyone have better pictures/details?

I haven't seen pictures showing the rest of the Monument or even mention of these key documents being on there from the pinko lib press, have any of you?

Contrast that with what is at the top of the US Supreme Court building: In the Center at the very peak is Moses holding the two tablets! It gets "worse" from a libs point of view. Inside the SCOTUS is another sculpture of Moses holding The Ten Commandments.

Now how can the Feds, say, with a straight face "Judge Moore, you have to take your Monument down."

Moreover, at the beginning of each day of court, a Justice says something to the effect: "God save the United States and this Honorable Court"

From http://www.moseshand.com/

Title: Justice, The Guardian of Liberty, 1935 Location: Supreme Court, 2nd St. between E. Capitol St. and Maryland Ave. NE

The pediment located on the east facade of the Supreme Court, is about 18 feet tall and 60 feet long. It emphasizes the contributions of Eastern and Mediterranean civilizations to the development of law. Moses, with the two tablets of Israelite law, is the central figure.

Inside The U.S. Supreme Court building another sculpture of Moses holding The Ten Commandments.

Moses as found in the Chambers of the House of Representatives.

Introductory comments:

The Ten Commandments and their explanation. Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the Bible. The listing of the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy takes up just one half of one page in your Bible. (Just 1% of Deuteronomy.) This listing is much like the book's Table of Contents. To understand a whole book you must know more than just a brief half page Table of Contents. Deuteronomy is Moses' explanation of God's Law. Most Americans think they know the Ten Commandments, but most, even the Clergy, have never, ever had these commandments explained to them.

Deuteronomy was quoted by Jesus Christ more than any other book. Think a moment, if you do not know and understand Deuteronomy, then how can you understand Jesus when he quotes it?

About 71% of the Bible is about government. Deuteronomy and many other books of the Bible were written, not by clergymen, but by heads of state. By presidents, governors and kings. We offer proof. Check it out for yourself.

All of America's social, economic and health problems are solvable by the application of God's given laws. These laws are recorded in Deuteronomy, explained by Moses, confirmed by Jesus Christ and taught by the Apostle Paul.

This Bible Study is not about 'Personal Salvation'. (We will leave that to your Pastor.) Rather, it is about National Salvation, and a national code of conduct. The 'other side of the coin'. The rest of the story. You will not be asked to attend, join or donate to any group, church or organization.

The United States is a Christian nation. The United States was founded by Christians. Most of its citizens are Christians. One national song, My Country Tis of Thee identifies Jesus Christ as our king.

Historically, America's basic moral code has been The Ten Commandments. In this Bible study we will show that each and every commandment, all ten, have been a part of our legal system here in North America for almost 400 years!

This course offers proof from history, from governmental documents such as State Constitutions and even from our highest court, the U.S. Supreme Court. You can read it for yourself.

America is in Bible prophesy. America is mentioned in the Bible. Some have called this "the greatest discovery of our age," but this is not new information. It has been known by many for well over 200 years. The Old Testaments Prophets wrote about America. Jesus kingdom parables describe America. Keep and open mind and check it out for yourself. America has enemies. Open enemies, hidden enemies and worst of all, sneaky enemies within. The Doctrine of Balaam is the basic weapon being used by the wicked in their effort to destroy Christian America. Every Christian needs to know how this deception works. Every Pastor should warn his congregation. Once the Doctrine of Balaam is explained, any child can understand how this deception works. To begin the Moses and the Ten Commandments Bible Course click here. Back to top of page.

[cpforlife.org]

I almost started to laugh until I realized it's actually happening. We are in worse trouble than we want to admit--far worse.

[cpforlife.org]

Yes! And please see post 113.

[cpforlife.org]

Here ya go, bud! Thanks pal! No problem.

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=16445

Alabama's Roy Moore given deadline to remove Ten Commandments monument Aug 7, 2003 By Michael Foust

Court order The Ten Commandments display in the rotunda of the Alabama Judiciary Building must be removed by Aug. 20, a federal district judge has said.

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (BP)--A federal judge has ordered Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore to remove the Ten Commandments display from the rotunda of the state judicial building by Aug. 20 or face fines.

U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson issued his order Aug. 5 to Moore, who had the 5,280-pound display placed in the building just over two years ago. While Thompson did not issue a specific fine amount, he did say it could begin at $5,000 and "perhaps" double each succeeding week the monument remains in the rotunda. Payments of fines would be due at the end of each week, Thompson said in his order.

Moore has lost his case before two courts -- the U.S. District Court and the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. He has said he will appeal the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Thompson ruled last year that the monument violates the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits government-established religion.

The monument features the King James Bible version of the Ten Commandments sitting on top of a granite block. Around the monument are quotes from historical figures and documents, such as the Declaration of Independence.

Speaking about the issue on his radio program Aug. 6, Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice said Thompson's order could "start a constitutional showdown." The showdown, Sekulow noted, hinges on the fact that Moore is not willing to remove it even though under Alabama law he has "custodial charge of the building."

The Supreme Court could issue a stay of Thompson's order while it decides if it wants to hear the case, Sekulow said.

"Normally, those stays are granted, so we may in fact see an avoidance of what may be a constitutional showdown in Alabama," Sekulow said.

A Southern Baptist pastor in Alabama told Baptist Press that Moore has wide support in Alabama from both Christians and non-Christians.

"I think he has some popularity in the culture at large simply because he was proven to be a man who is willing to speak his mind and who is willing to even take the consequences of standing for what he believes in," said David Prince, pastor of the Birmingham-area Raleigh Avenue Baptist Church in Homewood. "He stands in opposition to the cultural left that wants to mandate its values upon everybody else. He recognizes the real values that are part of our heritage and history."

The display no more violates the Constitution "than the fact that my money" says, "In God We Trust on it," Prince added.

"[I]t's irrefutable that our justice system is rooted in values and those values are rooted in the Scripture, and it simply recognizes that," Prince said. "It's not the coercion of anybody to do anything. It's just the recognition of our heritage."

Thompson, in his Aug. 5 order, said it is the "obligation of the State of Alabama (acting through the Chief Justice and, should he fail or be incapable of carrying out his duty under the rule of law, some other appropriate state official) to remove" the monument.

Thompson further stated that he does not envision "a scenario in which there would be an opportunity for any physical confrontation between federal and state officials or between federal officials and anyone else. If called upon, this court intends, at this time, to achieve compliance by first exhausting the traditional civil-contempt process of levying fines." --30-- (BP) photo posted in the BP Photo Library at www.bpnews.net. Photo title: COURT ORDER.

[cpforlife.org]

PING

[cpforlife.org]

Ten Commandments Tablets engraved on the oak doors to the U.S. Supreme Court building.

[Robert_Paulson2]

Thanks for pinging me. As you know I do not accept the premise that America is a Christian nation. I came anyway.

But I for one do not understand this case in that many copies of the 10 c's are all over the place. Notably my own office and all over my home. Understand I don't want the marriage of religion with politics.... but what harm does it do, UNLESS this guy's version is offensive to other folk's versions of faith in God... as in "catholic, vs. protestant, vs. mormon" or something.

Do zen masters really object to not murdering, or honoring God in our own ways? I don't think so. Why the $125,000,000 in costs to fight for placing this thing? It's not the nexus of our Nation's moral problems. It does accentuate our obsession with forms and symbols over substance.

Ultimately for me, as a nation we do not obey the commandments... so why keep fighting over them as if we do, either corporately or individually. Nor should we.

We do not stone adulterors, or sabbath breakers, folks who dishonor their parents, or refuse to tithe (as a part of sabbatical law), steal or even murderors very often.

We do not practice conquest and enslavement of our enemies, as did the Old Testament "saints"... or polygamy or a whole host of Scripturally REQUIRED proceedures regarding women's monthy cycles, the killing of rebellious children or any of the ANIMAL sacrifices tied to substitution in the death penalty.

Going to Stewart Anderson's for prime rib, when johhny shoots the teacher is just not the same somehow.

So unless this display is yet another "historical" monument to the fact that mankind has always formed laws to govern itself...

I don't understand all the outrage on either side. If it is an attempt to enforce God's laws via the judge's own personal beliefs... he should be removed. I am not sure he is... and if he actually tried to stone an adulteror he would have a big problem on his hands.

If it is just a display showing the concepts that have progressed from the past til today, I see little harm.

I do see a problem with the agenda pushers at certain big TV ministries using this to extract funds from the "faithful"... as if this nations soul depended on this monolith. It doesn't. But even that is not my problem... a fool and his money, is the fools' own business.

The real truth in my thinking is: If we seek to obey God as individuals, it impacts the nation. And it does so whether we have a million monuments or none. If we refuse to obey God as individuals, it impacts the nation, and no number of holy talismans can prevent the results of our folly.

To fight so fiercely for a monolith after the blowjobs already were pardoned in the oval office, seemeth to me to be way overmuch closing the barn door, AFTER THE BARN HAS BURNED DOWN. And it was not about impeachment with me... I thought it was a waste of big money from the beginning. What burned me down was the idea that we voted him in as a leader twice.

Our national leadership is clearly not Christian and it goes beyond party lines. It's about saying NO NEW TAXES and then raising them anyway. Lying apparently does NOT matter to us. And erecting a marble monolith to the importance of truth is not nearly as meaningful as actually telling the truth.

This judge is no savior, no messiah and probably no saint. The statues we have in every state have done nothing to steel our resolve to do what is right... moving a rock in with carvings on it will make no difference but to annoy our already deeply divided house.

Having grown tired of bickering over church and state... i would be interested in how many freepers really feel that church and state can marry successfully in the light of European history. I would be interested to see how many believe we were ever a Christian Nation LEGALLY by signed constitutional laws or decree. I would like to know how many of us believe that we are a Christian Nation today vs. a Nation with Christians in it.

I think the answers to those questions would be more interesting and enlightening than a dozen more 400 post slug fests over the seperation of church and state and the "lemon" test's validity. v FWIW, a religion in state compatriot of yours had quite a few of those pictures on one thread... that were very up close and readable, posted on one of the threads.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/964192/posts?q=1&&page=101

[NH Liberty]

Your #18 is spot-on!

Thanks. Was happy to discover that you (and your #18) had saved me from having to go on a rant of my own at just past 6 in the morning... (LOL)