Posted on 08/15/2003 11:01:01 AM PDT by InvisibleChurch
TheIndyChannel.com IPD Officers Getting High-Powered Assault Rifles Department Receives 200 M-16 A-1 Assault Rifles
INDIANAPOLIS -- The Indianapolis Police Department has a new high-powered weapon in its arsenal after taking possession of more than 200 M-16 A-1 assault rifles this week.
The rifles will be selectively deployed throughout the force, RTV6's Jack Rinehart reported.
Police say the weapon is more powerful, more accurate and gives an officer a greater chance for survival on the streets.
"It would give the patrol officer an opportunity to respond with a level of force equal to any civilian counterpart," IPD firearms instructor Lon Harness (pictured, below) said.
In the past year, Indianapolis police officers have seized more than 200 illegal, but similarly-sized weapons from the street, Rinehart reported.
IPD officers have also come under attack at least six times from suspects armed with assault-style weapons in the past year. Almost two years ago, Marion County Sheriff's Deputy Jason Baker was killed while the suspects held two police agencies at bay for hours with an assault rifle.
"It gives the guys an opportunity to do something that they might not otherwise be able to do with their pistol," Officer James Gray said.
Each shift and policing district will have the rifles available around the clock. Officers on the beat will use them to defend themselves and the public in situations where suspects are actively shooting.
"What did we learn at Columbine? The police show up, they do a perimeter, and they wait for SWAT to come up. Now SWAT has excellent response time, but when you have people actively being killed on the inside, we have to move," IPD Chief Jerry Barker said.
Not every officer will get a rifle. Barker said the department will go through a careful selection process looking for officers who combine good judgment with proficiency with a firearm, Rinehart reported.
The rifles should be on the street by the end of the year.
I too, see nothin' wrong with patrol rifles in a car trunk. Now they've got to qualify as EXPERT out to say at least 150yds printing at least a 3 inch group. The guns should also be held to strictly semi-auto fire with all mag sizes available. Just exactly what the average citizen has access to for his own family. After all...this rule....It's for the children!!
My position is that police departments should not be relegated to semi-automatic when the bad guys have full autos.
And neither should the public.
We are our own first line of defense. Anything the police departments have should be available to citizens.
The acquisition of 200 suit-makers should have the bar association high-fiving.
Letterman can do bits on broke Hoosiers after they reap the whirlwind.
As for Columbine, we learned that cops are cowards and only enter when the perps are dead--along with the children.
Full auto fire has only a very few applications off of a real live battlefield where armies face each other and men die in the thousands. Full auto on a battle rifle in an urban setting is a nighmare for all but the most highly trained and highly experienced. As a still wet behind the ears Second Lieutenant at the Infantry Officer Basic Course at Fort Benning, the first thing they teach you is that using full auto or Rock-n-Roll only serves as a waste of precious ammo, not in enemy KIAs. Spray and PRAY is a lot bigger problem in a civilian American neighborhood. Add to that the caliber of most of these weapons is indeed sufficient to penetrate the walls of innocent dwellings to kill innocent folks. I don't count on most civilian products of the public schools to exercise the needed FIRE DISCIPLINE once they're scared or they've got their "blood up." You feel me, homie?
They can be used to serve warrants and for house clearing of some exceptionally dangerous subjects where you KNOW with 100% certainty that there are no noncombatants (usually meaning the families or children of bad guys) or hostages inside. In that situation, the HKMP5SD is King of the Hill! Using specialized subsonic ammo and the team becomes whispering death, if they're properly trained.
The cost of full auto is prohibitive as is the practice ammo and magazines. Not to mention the cost to obtain the tax stamp (not a permit) and the search to find a Chief of Police who will write you a letter of character recommendation to the BATF....who will require you to give up your fourth Amendment right to illegal search by requiring that you allow them into your home 24/7 just so they can verify that you are still in possession of that weapon.
Don't get me wrong, I have many friends who are wealthy enough and politically connected enough and finally, thanks to a sordid youth, hung out with snake eaters and other sorts of sordid folks...if you know what I mean. So THEY formed groups of FULL AUTO CLUBS and they shoot once a month at a certified fully insured range facility and (this is important) NOWHERE ELSE! They certainly DON'T carry those costly weapons around in their trunks waiting for a SWAT callout so they can go help. See?
I found as an Infantry Captain that the fire provided from my troops was actually much more accurate and therefore more "lethal" when done so in semiauto mode. Aimed fire produces results from the military and the civilians.
Just ask those guys in Roger's Rangers. OK..so...they fought in the American Revolution. Still they were amongst the deadliest warriors on the battlefield. One shot....one kill.
Nobody not on a battlefield, needs full auto. But if you have the cash, the training, the background to verify your status as a law abiding citizen...You or I should be able to get one. But speaking as a certified instructor, I wouldn't encourage it. Remember, every round downrange that misses a hostile target and impacts a nonthreat target, is both a attempted murder or manslaughter charge (because your specific intent to cause your original target's demise will transfer to the new subject) AND a certain civil lawsuit.
Now, you can imagine the problems with say a 15rd Glock and a jittery gunhand....now translate that to a sub-gun where the potential is to double that in about one fifth of the time. I don't know about you, but it gives me the creeps.
You're not going to practice using your "shtick" on me, dogface.
I served this country just like you; your bars don't mean a damn thing to me.
We can debate the issue, but I won't tolerate your condescending bullshit.
The point is that criminals already have these full autos by the thousands.
It seems ridiculous to me that people who are trying to enforce the law are not equally armed.
Of course there's a need for training and certification, and, of course, these weapons would be need to be used in very limited circumstances.
It follows that if police departments are going to have these weapons then ordinary citizens should have the opportunity to be trained and certified in the use of these weapons, also.
I don't carry a sidearm so that I can jump in and help a SWAT team, and I wouldn't have a full auto for that purpose, either.
Wow...I have NO idea where that came from. It was NOT my intention to sound condescending to you at all and if that's the impression I gave, I offer humble apologies. Really. It's late and I tried for a "funny" because my wife and I were lamenting at dinner tonight (our 15th wedding anniversary) that neither of us looks forward to jumping back into a classroom after such a nice summer. That's all.
Back to the issue: I disagree. I don't think there are "thousands" of these AK's full auto on the streets. Or if they're out there, they're not being used in large numbers. It just seems that way because the media crawls all over each story from a million different angles. Look, you get caught with full auto by the Feds and you do FEDERAL TIME that's like forever time to these punks. Even my parolees and probationers agreed: It's just not worth it for the individual criminal to use them on any sort of continual basis. The main exception here is of course the big city gang wars. But that's the big cities. You just give full auto to every swinging Richard out there and you'll find so many dead innocent folks lying around the Ak's will seem like ripe avacodos fallen to the ground...just walk around south Florida and pick 'em up.
"Of course there's a need for training and certification, and, of course, these weapons would be need to be used in very limited circumstances."
You just shot your own argument in the foot...on full auto. Cops aren't going to get the training they need...they can't FREAKING FIRE THEIR ISSUE DUTY WEAPONS WITH ANY SORT OF ACCURACY ALREADY!!! Cops that are products of the public schools have been raised by that system for twelve years in a row that guns are evil and that using a gun, even in a lawful self defense situation is evil unto itself. Down here in Miami, folks become cops because of the great benefits, not because they like guns. That's how it USED to be...not anymore. Same for the general public.
Would you want YOUR kids playing outside if some BADGE got nervous and began the old PRAY and SPRAY game???? With maybe .308 penetration abilities? Civilians won't know when and where not to use it. It will only take just a FEW incidents and the help of the media to cause such a hue and cry in this nation that we follow the UK example. Little chuckie schumer and Hillary KLINTOON would be salivating at just that opportunity.
There is a point in HISTORY that proves all of this. Back in the 1930's when the infamous TOMMY GUN was legal in all 50 states and marketed to ranchers as the ultimate in RUSTLER CONTROL....but along came Al Capone and those wars and then the FBI started whining about parity of firepower...and then came the GCA of 1934 wheich made it a necessity that an average citizen secure some documents and make some sacrifices if he wants one and that system still WORKS! Do you know that in all of the time since 1934 only ONE crime was committed by the holder of a FULL AUTO weapon who also had the tax stamp and gone through the prequisites? And he was a cop who had access to full auto anyway. Only the law abiding follow laws. If you want a machinegun THAT badly, follow the law...spend some pretty BIG $$$ and sacrifice your 4th Amendment rights, so the BATF can come inspect at 0400hrs...
Me? I'd rather crank my scope up to 800 meters, take up a good supported sight picture, let my breath out halfway and squeeeeeeeeeeeze.
Past 0400 right now. Me for bed. Sorry again TexasCowboy...NOTHING I said is ever meant to insult any freeper except our well known government lurkers from NSA. ~tin foil hat purrs quietly~
You've made some good points.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that we have a different breed of men becoming cops today than we did thirty or forty years ago.
The ones I know gripe continually about departmental regulations, but they joined law enforcement knowing they would be strapped with those requirements.
I know several older ex-cops who quit because of it.
The older ones I know love guns just like I do, and they're proficient in the use of those guns. They didn't develop their love nor their proficiency working for law enforcement.
You're right that the younger cops don't like guns, and they don't really like civilians having guns.
A case in point was the young highway patrolman who pulled me over a short time ago. When I handed him my Concealed Carry Permit along with my driver's license, his hand immediately began to hover over his sidearm as he told me to keep my hands in his view.
For me, I'm going through the necessary requirements to obtain my license to own full autos - not so that I can engage a gang of criminals on an equal basis, but simply because I love guns.
I toted a BAR in the Corps, and I remember the feel of letting off a three or four round burst into a target at two hundred yards. I enjoyed it.
I shoot because I love to shoot, and a full auto will give me one more gun to enjoy.
I'm not a mercenary or a snake eater. My shooting is strictly for pleasure, and that's something the anti-gun crowd doesn't understand.
Again, I'm sorry that my temper flared.
God is not through with me yet.
I hope you and your wife had a wonderful anniversary, and may you have many more.
Now, when he got me on the radar I was doing about 95!
I'm of like mind. IF I could afford it I'd get me an UZI or H&K MP5 with suppressor. But I can't afford the weapon (public school teacher y'know) or the cost of ammo to keep her fed and happy. Besides, most of my friends do have the class III permit, so I just use theirs. They understand my plight and are merciful in their teasing. I shoot with quite a few old FORMER marines including one sniper and one RECON guy and geeze...the dogface/doggie jokes just never stop. ~sigh~ But I give as good as I get and dang it if we're not durn close to brothers. I'd give my life for some of those guys....and I'd trust the life of my kid to them anyday. For me there is no higher praise.
Thinking back on the military experience, I think the whole "band of brothers" concept starts the day you begin to live fire on the range.
You have just become deadly, and all of your brothers have achieved that same result.
You have become a "band of deadly brothers", and you carry that sense of belonging the rest of your life.
Amen bruddah!
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