Terri (Schiavo) Hospitalized

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation | August 15, 2003

[Hildy]

Yes, I think we do.

[MHGinTN]

SOMETHING IS ROTTEN IN AMERICA

This past week, two very prominent issues briefly set Internet news discussion sites ablaze: 1) Terri Schiavo's impending court ordered starvation unto death; 2) the conflict between federal and state rights regarding a Ten Commandments monument set up in an Alabama Court building. The outrage factor from conservative Christians appears to be about equal in magnitude on both issues. And that perplexes me because I see a huge difference in the issues at the heart of both controversies.

First, let me be clear that I’m not accusing conservative Christians of treating these two issues as either/or, in duplicity; many upset at the planned execution of Terri Schiavo by court ordered starvation probably have little or no knowledge of the Ten Commandments story, and vice versa. Second, both issues have liberals in the opposition to the conservative Christian perspective. But which issue is more illustrative of the terrible degradation our nation has reached? Asked that way, I would hope that Christians could point immediately to the plight of Terri Schiavo, but when I’ve asked that on various discussion threads, responses tend to be delayed, like the responders are having to think it over! THAT’s what perplexes me, that Christians have become so easily manipulated by the ‘agree to disagree’ treachery through which so many liberal societal standards have chipped away at our nation’s moral fiber.

Here’s an excerpt from a FreeRepublic.com thread where Terri Schiavo’s peril was being discussed (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/964817); two or three posters were defending the courts ordered execution of Terri based on the use of a feeding tube and the assertion that she’s in a persistent vegetative state, which she’s not based on my medical familiarity with that condition … and we’ll return to that in a moment (even that state would not allow organ harvesting because the person is considered to still be a living being not to be killed for their organs):

“It's not that she CAN'T swallow. Swallow Studies have been prohibited because (get this) she might choke to death. I worked with people like her for 16 years, and such a decision is not just irrational (the alternative is to use the excuse that she can't swallow on her own to starve her to death) it is not supported by standard practice. Frankly, tube-feeding or swallowing isn't a substantive distinction anyway. The point is, her "husband" and a few liberal judges have gone out of their way to destroy the legal firewall between difficult life-conditions and actual brain-death.
This country must not allow a legal system which has been complicit in denying this woman any chance at recovery to murder her in the most painful and prolonged way.
Life is either sacred or elitists can decide who can live and who must die. ...

138 posted on 08/16/2003 9:58 PM EDT by Burr5

I’m addressing this essay to fellow conservative Christians (not the Hildys or other abortion supporters lurking about), but the poster just cited said he’s/she's an Atheist, yet she/he knows where the line of inhumane should be drawn without hesitation! Icons and minarets are not sacred, but human life should be to a conservative Christian, and he/she shouldn’t have to stop and contemplate the gravity of icons as compared to living human beings.

So you may be asking yourself, ‘Why is this guy getting so agitated about this; is this guy somehow related to Terri Schiavo or her family?’ The answer to the latter is no, and the answer to the former is all about defending the sanctity of individual human life. See, the same mindset that can defend the euthanizing of Terri Schiavo (rather than allowing her parents to care for her since her husband is no longer in the mood) is the mindset that will defend the exploitation of human embryos for their body parts, their stem cells, claiming the individual human embryo is not a full human being thus it is to be cannibalized for body parts to treat older individual humans.

Not even the phrase ‘slippery slope’ conveys sufficient gravity for the slide this nation has taken over the past thirty plus years regarding the sanctity of individual dependent human life. We’ve reached the stage in our devolution where those calling themselves conservative Christians are not sure whether human life is sacred based on the case by case contemplation … the sanctity of human life has been replaced with utilitarianism based upon a situational ethic that confounds and nullifies the Christian ethic.

For decades now, courts have been making rulings regarding the harvesting of human organs for transplantation to aid other human beings. My own brother’s body was harvested for tissues and organs that aided many people, after he had slipped into an irreversible comatose state where there was not even the glimmer of brain activity and his body functions were being maintained via machinery and medications. To take him for harvesting, a death protocol form had to be checked off. If he had not met the protocol, his body would not have been released for harvesting. The protocol establishes whether a functioning integrated whole human organism is still in evidence (and Terri fits that category more than adequately for she does breath on her own and does respond to stimuli both visual and painful).

But the question with Terri Schiavo is, ‘What level of life support is deemed too much?’ Yes, that is really what this issue comes to, how much life support is a liberal society with liberal courts and judges willing to provide before deciding to ‘pull the plug’ … no, that’s not right! What level of life support is a liberal society willing to provide before changing its mind and killing the burden? Now, that’s more accurate.

A Christian conservative should never have to stop and weigh the situational ethic when it comes to approving life support for an individual human being, in a womb or in a hospital or hospice facility. That some do now have this dilemma when confronted with life issues is why abortion on demand has become more favored with un-planned pregnancies than adoption of the conceived individual human beings.

Soon, very soon in fact, our nation will face the issue of cannibalizing alive, very young individual human beings for their ‘useful’ body parts. Oh to be sure, the first cases will not be more than days-old embryos, likely even embryos conceived outside a human body. But with the technological advances now being tested, it will be quite likely that embryos conceived in petri dishes will be life supported on into the fetal age of the alive individual, then served up for harvesting. It is, after all, only a matter of conservative Christians adjusting to the degrees of situational ethic. And folks, that really perplexes me!

While many peoples’ attention is fixed upon a monument in an Alabama courthouse, a woman is being court-order euthanized, to remove the inconvenience of her life support and avoid spending money to give her rehabilitation opportunities which have already been paid for by an insurance settlement. And that makes me very angry … at US for tolerating such evil.

###########

[The above can be found on my blogpage (http://MHGinTN.blogspot.com), and there an addy is posted, to rail at me if one chooses ... but don't expect a reply, especially if from a liberal death cultists. I collect the novel ones for use in future publications.]

[flaglady47]

You know, Oceanperch, I wasn't going to post a reply on this thread because I find the whole thread so irritating, but your comments have forced me to do so. You speak as if you are the brother, father, mother of this woman. You're not. You don't know what motivates her husband, but you assume he a) probably murdered her, based on no facts at all, b) that he is "doing this for the money", claiming that you know this because you met him once, and therefore know all, and c) that Teri would be just fine if only she was home with her parents, and getting therapy, even though she has been in a vegetative state for the past, what is it, 13 years? And that somehow her lingering on is "her choice". Her choice? She's not capable of making one. And then to claim that her husband is "living in sin" with a woman, when the reason he can't remarry is because his wife has been in a vegetative state for all these years and he therefore can't get a divorce. Geez, what a catch 22 for this poor guy. My dad was in such a vegetative state from a stroke, and my mom was asked to make a decision as to whether to take him off life support or not (he had a strong heart that kept beating, even though his brain was dead). If he hadn't have been taken off life support, he would have died from the tube they had to put down his throat, and the eventual pneumonia it would produce. Now, this woman isn't in a coma, she just, brainwise, as was my dad, isn't there. Her physical shell is being kept alive, but she is gone. I know this isn't a valid comparison, except for in it's bizarreness, but it's like Ted Williams being kept on ice so his DNA could be cloned further down the road to produce more great baseball players. A concept not based in reality. I think it equally incredibly bizarre that this woman's parents want to cling on for year after year nursing a brain dead body. There's something real unhealthy about this, and equally not based in reality. Each to their own opinion, but I think these parents need some therapeutic help. They should have let go of this long, long ago. Life can be cruel, as it was to their daughter, but I think it is equally cruel to prolong her physical agony low these many years to satisfy their own psychological needs, unhealthy ones at best.

[oceanperch]

All I support is her right to life as she chooses.

All that disagree have a right to post their opinion.

[MHGinTN]

You wrote, " ... when the reason he can't remarry is because his wife has been in a vegetative state for all these years and he therefore can't get a divorce." Sadly, you're spouting off without full information. And the death protocol I addressed in my #162 post is quite applicable to your father's state and to Terri's. Incidentally, I have researched the 'detective work' done at the time Terri was hospitalized so many years ago. Because of the rush of activity occurring in her area at that time, her case was not fully investigated and there were credible charges that her husband (who had abused her previously) might have been directly responsible for her hypoxia. And no, I'm not related to her or her scumbag husband who refuses to divorce her and split the insurance proceeds with her next caregivers (her parents, if the 'judge' had an alive heart).

[MHGinTN]

Incidentally, you assert that Terri is in agony. Does that mean you believe she is in pain and can understand it to be pain? Does that mean that you believe she is a mental agony and thus sentient at a level she cannot express? You might want to tighten up your defense of this court-ordered execution, if you're gonna post at FR.

[ClancyJ]

Absolutely wonderful post. Thanks for always jumping on these occurrences in our society and for your posts against abortion.

I'm afraid I often become overwhelmed with all the assaults on our values and when in that state - I drift on to a more pleasurable topic.

I agree about the views expressed often on FR. Seems there is a progression to more selfish interests when talk comes along about the ill, aged or weak in our society.

Many do not want any hint that these will be a drain on taxpayers and therefore - they (who are not personally affected) easily brush off the plights of these who cannot help themselves. Maybe this is because these are younger posters and have not yet seen enough of life and the plight of those unable to care for themselves.

They do not realize that the judgements they make on these people are the same judgements they will have to live under. They could easily become a Terry. I would not want to live in her condition - but (a large BUT), I would want someone protecting my right to life. Who wants to be lying there unable to care for themselves as the ghouls analyze what body parts can be mined. Who wants to be killed because we have not healed fast enough especially when the ghouls are not providing the medical attention to heal?

How can they claim such a woman needs to die - if they are not claiming that it is a just verdict for any in this position - including them.

Yet - the basic point is the value of life. We are not God and we are not the ones to take away life - God does that.

This is a progression from the acceptance of "pulling the plug" on the brain dead. Just one step to "pulling the plug" on those with defective brains. This is a progression from acceptance of abortion in our society. If we are willing to kill those not yet born, we have already become judges of who lives. Just a few little steps to "forgetting" that a child is in a hot car (delayed abortion) and then "pulling the plug" on the brain dead progressing to withdrawing feeding from the sick elderly, progressing to assisting the death process when WE FEEL IT IS TIME FOR DEATH for OTHERS.

I think some of this comes from the fact that many physicians have a god complex. This coupled with the lack of religion easily pushes them into daily making value of life judgements. This attitude then spreads to the medical staff and into society.

There needs to be a major outcry about Terry's situation. IMHO this man was provided $700,000 to care for her and he is using it on maintenance care - not medical rehabilitation because he does not want her rehabilitated. A divorce would then be necessary and half of his belongings would go to her. Far more profitable to assist her in dying (as stated that she wished). In addition, the sooner she dies - the more of the money he and the new honey get.

Maybe we need to get O'Reilly and Hannity nudged. The parents were on one of those shows.

[ClancyJ]

I choose life for the living

Who says you get to choose life or death for others? You can only choose life or death for yourself. You are not God. There is a big difference in someone being brain dead and someone who is awake, shows recognition of a mother.

In addition - the husband has never provided funds for rehabilitation. He does not have the right to judge her on her status without medical attention to improve that status.

[MHGinTN]

The story has been reported on Hannity's Fox show and on O'Reilly. But the story will slip from the media radar and the courts will be allowed to order the execution via starvation carried out ... unless a greater din is raised over this miscarriage of justice and the right to life.

[ClancyJ]

May God give you strength and the energy to care for your son. Just think how blessed the son is to have you as his mother.

There are so many sad situations in life and only those involved daily really understand it.

One thing I have learned is that people adjust to the situation they are in and their desires are tempered by their abilities.

We claim it is so very sad that a nursing home altheimer's patient can't get out and go places because of their physical needs. Yet - in reality, they do not wish to go out and do the things we think they would enjoy BECAUSE they do not feel good when doing it. It is too hard. They want their routine, their naps, their visits and activities - not the activities of the healthy world.

So - although a life is judged miserable and suffering by a well person - they are looking at it through their expectations not the wishes and expectations of a handicapped or ill person.

The only exception to this is a life of pain and suffering. Then the whole thing changes.

[ClancyJ]

The reason I say that is simple: In the abscence of contrary evidence, there is no reason not to believe him.

What a bunch of inane reasoning. May you never be in the position that someone could claim that you said you wanted all your money given to them and you wanted them to put you out of your misery should you ever be unconscious. If your reasoning was worthwhile, any medical technician, any neighbor, any relative could come up with all kind of claims once you were unconscious temporarily.

If she said this - it should have been put in writing and witnessed because her life is at stake and her care in her time of sickness.

[flaglady47]

Get off your high horse, MHGinTN. I see you've been on Free Republic since 2000. I've been a Freeper since 1998, so don't give me any lip about "if your gonna post at FR." I've got a 2-year headstart on you. Now since I've seen your rapsheet here at FR, I know where you are coming from. You are a zealot and activist. Fine. Again, live and let live. You are gung ho your point of view. Just try not to speak for a woman you don't know, and base your views on second-hand facts and hearsay. And we (that includes you) do not know if she is in agony and sentient at a level she cannot express; however, if you read my comments more closely, you will realize I was speaking to physical agony. That can be observed by her continued deterioration, which must be obvious to those that minister to her physical needs. This whole thing is disgusting. Her soul has, in my opinion, long since left her mortal body and is with God; all that remains is the shell that continues to deteriorate. The whole issue gives me the creeps. You don't think 13 years in a vegetative state is enough? How about another 20. Will you feel better then? Will the parents feel better, having spent all of their remaining lives babysitting a brain dead daughter, rather than moving on with their own lives, and allowing the husband to do the same? Not a psychologically healthy situation here. But, again, you're entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. The difference is I am right (and grounded in the reality of the situation).

[ClancyJ]

Its really none of your business. And as hard as it may be, its none of her parents business legally either. Stop interfering with the rule of law.

Just why are you so gung ho on protecting the right of a man to kill his wife?

The man has a choice and gets to continue living. He can get his way and kill her or he can abandon her and leave her to the parents to take care of. Both ways, he lives and no one takes away his life.

Why is he not wanting to turn over the care to the parents since they wish to keep her alive? They also wish the money to be spent on rehabilitation which has not been done.

The constant claims of "her wishes" as witnessed by the husband (who now has a live-in) and his relatives mean ending her life. Seems one would need a little more proof than that. These claims ring hollow when there is money involved.

IMHO he wants to move on with his life with the money. He does not want to get a divorce and have to give up the money - he wants her to die. He then will not have to pay her fees for another ten - twenty years and when the money is spent, be responsible for her expenses.

Since these are the realities of what happens to him - there are sufficient grounds to question his motives and the judge should be protecting her rights since she is unable to speak for herself. A husband should not have the power of attorney over a wife unless she has provided that power of attorney in writing and witnessed. She did not. Therefore it is his word only. His situation improves greatly if she dies. Therefore, the judge or some court agent should be speaking for her rights.

[ClancyJ]

I'm just obviously not a happy camper about Christians blindly supporting her parents lies.

Where is your proof the parents are lying? If there is proof - what parent wouldn't lie if the life of their daughter was being destroyed.

I am very suspicious of why you are so gung ho to take away a human life (as long as it is not your life at this time).

[ClancyJ]

Had her parents done to me what they are trying to do to him, not only would they not know where she was or in what condition she was in, they would be mightly sorry they dared accuse me of murdering my wife for cash.

It is all about what you want isn't it? Funny, the wife has no rights to live, the parents have no rights to keep their daughter alive - only you or that husband have a right here and they better watch out because they are insulting you or that husband.

What an absolute bunch of crock. Tap yourself on the head here - we are talking about life and death. You or the husband are not God, you and the husband are supporting killing a woman. You or the husband do not have that right unless you have been given a Power of Attorney and you were not.

The hospital better watch out because if she dies - those parents are going to hit the courts. There are civil cases you know. Sure sounds like a case of withholding rehabilitation treatment and wrongful death to me. Maybe murder to many.

That husband better just turn her over (with the money of course) to the parents and go on and divorce her and marry his live-in honey.

He does not want this woman - they do. Any judge should turn her over to the parents.

Oh, note that the husband has moved her so that he can proceed with the killing since he found a liberal judge willing to make life decisions on another and he does not want the parents to find her. And many here support such actions.

Better watch out - wives can do the same thing.

[oceanperch]

Agree.

Thank you.

[oceanperch]

Agree.

Thank you.

[ClancyJ]

Her soul has, in my opinion, long since left her mortal body and is with God; all that remains is the shell that continues to deteriorate

Just what do you base that opinion on? Where are we given any information that the soul leaves the body before death?

Why are so many willing to play God here? If her body is deteriorating - it will lead to death.

This is not a case of "her" wishes because we have nothing in writing - only the word of a husband who is tired of caring for her and his family.

Her family wants her alive - they should be allowed to take control of her and let him get out of the picture.

Why the strong urge to kill others, to judge they are not fit to live? If you believe this strongly, I hope you have done a Medical Power of Attorney and put it in writing so that this will be done to you in less than the 14 years as you wish.

[PGalt]

Thanks for the ping Marvin. The standard of all value is life.

[E.G.C.]

Thanks MHG for your observations. BTTT!!!!!!