Critics slam Davis over new 'cross-dresser' law

WND ^ | August 4, 2003

[Saundra Duffy]

My gracious, what did that dumb A*** do now?

Meanwhile, the GOP cannibals are going to blow the recall, no doubt.

[breakem]

Let's see if I got this right. My boss can require me to wear a tie to work, but if I wear a dress he can't say anything. What a wonderful world.

[jjm2111]

If Bruce can dress like a girl, I don't have to wear a suit and tie.

[The Old Hoosier]

I think that's "dominatrices."

[Darksheare]

True.
And for some stupid reason, the quote from The Matrix popped into my head, "No-one can be told what the matrix is."
*ugh*
Nevermind what's going on at my end that would make my sense of humor do that..
Been a bad day with accumulated showers of nonsense.

[punster]

Another anomaly:

There are XX (genetic females) individuals afflicted with what is known as adrenogenital syndrome. There is some degree of masculinization of the external genitals. There are also varying degrees of masculinzation of behavior in those individuals, ranging from being somewhat tomboyish in their behavior, to being lesbians.

Yet another anomaly:

There are a number of XY (genetic males) individuals with the genetic (sex-linked and transmitted through the mothers) trait of androgen insensitivity. Though genetically male, they are phenotypically female and they identify as females. Of course they are sterile, but they are function as girls and women in society. The only reason the condition is discovered is they fail to menstruate and are given a very thorough pelvic exam and chromosomal study. It does seem most appropriate to call them women.

As to your total dismissal of animal studies, the problem is it is unethical to do similar studies on humans. So animal studies are suggested to test hypotheses. You select a laboratory animal with similar biochemistry in the particular metabolic pathway of concern. If there is a question about the adequacy of experimentation on rats, then the answer is to repeat the experiment on other species of animals.

Another point about the rat experiments. Drugs like cyproterone acetate (a synthetic progesterone and androgen blocker), and several other drugs have been shown to block the actions of testosterone and other androgens in humans. They have been used for chemical castration agents for sex offenders. There is no question about their action on humans.

[hotpotato]

I've already pointed out the intersexed as well as those with deformed XX or XY chromosomes. As I said, these are *extremely* rare and do not account for the numbers we are seeing in the TG community. And there are those intersexed who were surgically altered at birth in conflict with their chromosomes, raised as that gender, yet eventually reclaimed their gender as identified by their sex chromosomes.

As to your total dismissal of animal studies, the problem is it is unethical to do similar studies on humans.

Studies *already* exist on the effects of cyproterone acetate on humans. Cyproterone acetate is used in the treatment of prostrate cancer. No studies exist that indicate that these men are at a greater risk of gender identity disorder or are suddenly overwhelmed with the urge to wear women's bras, panties and garter belts. Cyproterone acetate is also used in birth control pills for women to reduce excessive body hair growth and does not result in an increased risk of gender confusion or lesbianism.

Chemical castration is simply decreasing or eliminating the male sex drive. It does not cause an individual to think or believe they are of another gender. There is no scientific data that supports a relation to blocking testosterone and causing a male to believe he is actually female. The flip side of that are the female body builders who inject testosterone to build body mass. They do not report an increase in lesbianism (though they do report that testosterone increases their sex drive but for the gender of preference PRE injections).

As I said, there are a lot of theories floating around out there about the origins of TG/TS that are just theories without data to support them but that doesn't seem to bother those that push those theories for their own agenda. For their own reasons, these people need to believe the hype but there are also a lot of people out there that are just as convinced that psychics can talk to dogs or dead people because they can't emotionally handle the concept of death and it must be so because they've seen it with their own eyes on TV!

[hotpotato]

The flip side of that are the female body builders who inject testosterone to build body mass.

Actually, the correct flip side of that would be that testosterone injections in females would cause them to believe they were men trapped in women's bodies or cause them to want to pass themselves off as males or masturbate while wearing boxer shorts, but there are no studies that support that theory either (nor even such claims).

[punster]

"Studies *already* exist on the effects of cyproterone acetate on humans. Cyproterone acetate is used in the treatment of prostrate cancer. No studies exist that indicate that these men are at a greater risk of gender identity disorder or are suddenly overwhelmed with the urge to wear women's bras, panties and garter belts. Cyproterone acetate is also used in birth control pills for women to reduce excessive body hair growth and does not result in an increased risk of gender confusion or lesbianism."

However, the effect of many drugs is completely different on the fetus than on adult humans. A good example is thalidomide. For adult humans, thalidomide was a 'safe' drug (safe in that it could have therapeutic effects at doses that were below the toxic level). However, when thalidomide was administered to pregnant women, the babies were born with phocomelia, under-developed or missing limbs.

Another example: ethyl alcohol. Many people will enjoy one beer or glass of wine every day, and perhaps even get some beneficial effect on their cardiovascular system and quite possibly some protection against cancer (of course, excessive drinking is bad for the health). However, alcohol consumption by pregnant women is linked to fetal alcohol syndrome.

The point is some drugs are very useful for treating adults, but it very dangerous to a developing fetus. Also, the danger to the fetus will depend upon at point in the gestation period the drug is administered.

[punster]

"Studies *already* exist on the effects of cyproterone acetate on humans. Cyproterone acetate is used in the treatment of prostrate cancer. No studies exist that indicate that these men are at a greater risk of gender identity disorder or are suddenly overwhelmed with the urge to wear women's bras, panties and garter belts. Cyproterone acetate is also used in birth control pills for women to reduce excessive body hair growth and does not result in an increased risk of gender confusion or lesbianism."

However, the effect of many drugs is completely different on the fetus than on adult humans. A good example is thalidomide. For adult humans, thalidomide was a 'safe' drug (safe in that it could have therapeutic effects at doses that were below the toxic level). However, when thalidomide was administered to pregnant women, the babies were born with phocomelia, under-developed or missing limbs.

Another example: ethyl alcohol. Many people will enjoy one beer or glass of wine every day, and perhaps even get some beneficial effect on their cardiovascular system and quite possibly some protection against cancer (of course, excessive drinking is bad for the health). However, alcohol consumption by pregnant women is linked to fetal alcohol syndrome.

The point is some drugs are very useful for treating adults, but it very dangerous to a developing fetus. Also, the danger to the fetus will depend upon at point in the gestation period the drug is administered.

[hotpotato]

You can "what if" all day long. The fact is, you have not provided one scientific study that supports any claim that TS/TG in individuals that test normal for XX, XY chromosomes can be traced to any biological or physiological cause. Not one. The known side effects for the drugs you discuss don't even relate to TS/TG. You are blowing smoke. I'm not buying what you are pedaling here today. I doubt anyone else here is either. I suspect you may be trying to convince yourself more than the rest of us. So be it.

[punster]

I mentioned the example of the rats, because the action of androgen blockers, given at a specific point during gestation, will cause male rats to exhibit female sexual behavior. It is logical assume that those same androgen blockers, given to a pregnant woman (carrying an XY fetus), will cause a similar effect and produce a boy that will exhibit female behavior, including sexual behavior.

Now, answer the question: Will a boy that is misprogrammed will have an easy time in society?

My object was to present a short lesson on teratogenesis and neuroendocrinology. BTW: I teach a college level course on toxicology.

[hotpotato]

It is logical assume that those same androgen blockers, given to a pregnant woman (carrying an XY fetus), will cause a similar effect and produce a boy that will exhibit female behavior, including sexual behavior.

Studies show that if you destroy the olfactory of a male rat, the male rat ceases sexual behavior. By your "logic," if a human male loses his sense of smell, his sexual behavior ceases. I don't find your definition of logic in my dictionary. No reputable scientist will claim that research results from laboratory rats alone is incontrovertible proof of the human condition. The data is out there on offspring of women who use androgen blockers. I suspect it does not support your theory or you would refer to that data rather than rat research as would *every* person who is looking for a physiological/biological cause for TG/TS.

It is not logical to jump from male rat sexual behavior (which is defined as mounting, intromission and ejaculation) to the human male crossdressing fetish. How human women dress and "act" is a product of our social environment and is learned. Women "act" at being women (social perception) the same way males "act" at being male... or "act" at being female. Scottish perception of an aggressive male is a man in a skirt (kilt). Your assumption above is not only not a logical conclusion, it's bad science.

Now, answer the question: Will a boy that is misprogrammed will have an easy time in society?

And your point is? That it's better to hoodwink the public into believing something that's not been proven by using a bunch of doubletalk? The public is ignorant sometimes but not all times. In the end, you will do more harm to your cause by generating suspicion, distrust and resentment.

I teach a college level course on toxicology.

As what? No reputable scientist would attempt to persuade the public that research results mean anything more than what they really mean. You don't seem to grasp the concept of scientific studies supported by empirical data before you promote a theory as fact. I'm not gullible enough to not know that a good number of people on the internet misrepresent who and what they are. You are definitely no scientist.

I'm not interested in your guesswork and unsupported theories. You aren't fooling anyone here.

[GSWarrior]

Like hell it did!

I know. What a strange choice of words..even for WND. More like "consciously ignored by media outlets."

[punster]

There is one definite piece of evidence that the brains of transgender patients have differences in the structure of their brains. A paper that was published in the science journal 'Nature' during 1995.

Specifically, the researchers found the transgender patients had BTSC structures in the hypothalamus that were more consistent with that of women. It is doubtful those changes occurred after gestation, given your own arguments that drugs like cyproterone acetate given during adulthood did not change the gender identity of the patients to whom it was administered.

Unfortunately, it does seem that people are programmed by the hormonal environment in the womb, and chromosomes are of secondary importance.

There are no good answers that will satisfy everyone.

[HamiltonJay]

Don't lay this sick thing strictly at Davis' feet, what the hell sort of legistlature passes such a nonsensical bill in the first place?

[hotpotato]

There is one definite piece of evidence that the brains of transgender patients have differences in the structure of their brains.

Still blowing smoke. That research was performed on FIFTEEN cadavers! Only 15! Hardly a conclusive test group. Moreover, fourteen of those fifteen transgendered were known to be taking progesterone when they died. Only one said he did not and there are those that are skeptical of that one. Scientists without an agenda (including those involved in the research) believe the changes in the hypothalamus were due to the progesterone therapy.

I'm sure you knew these facts but chose to omit this very important information. I wondered when you would produce this bogus claim.

[hotpotato]

Unfortunately, it does seem that people are programmed by the hormonal environment in the womb,

Programmed in what way? Surely you aren't going to use the "my brain was washed by hormones in the womb in the sixth week" or "sixth month and that explains my transgenderism" argument. None of which has been proven.

You really *don't* know what you are talking about. You do, however, seem to be quite practiced at twisting logic and information to suit your agenda.

[hotpotato]

a term limtted legislature that never gains enough experience on how to deal with real-world issues and, therefore, twiddles its thumbs on issues that drive businesses out of the state.