Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


1 posted on 07/25/2003 2:17:22 AM PDT by DPB101
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-24 next last
To: DPB101
LOL! They invite Susan Ostrich and Phil Brennan, but did they try to invite Ann Coulter to defend herself? If not, why not?
2 posted on 07/25/2003 2:40:50 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Haynes: ...President Truman in 1948 set up a massive loyalty program to remove Communists from federal employment.

Truman's Justice Department convicted the leadership of the CPUSA under the Smith Act, convicted Alger Hiss, and in 1950 arrested and later convicted the Rosenbergs, David Greenglass, Harry Gold, and Morton Sobell for espionage...
=====

Did this guy read the Venona files? That was just the tip of the iceberg.

3 posted on 07/25/2003 2:45:15 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: MJY1288; lawgirl; mtngrl@vrwc; Miss Marple; kayak; SevenofNine; Wphile; azGOPgal; hoosierpearl; ...
Ping!!!
4 posted on 07/25/2003 2:45:43 AM PDT by patriciaruth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
thanks for posting this.
8 posted on 07/25/2003 2:57:59 AM PDT by D-fendr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Great Read!!I really loved the Noam Chomsky hit at the end!I'll re read it when I'm more awake.
9 posted on 07/25/2003 2:58:02 AM PDT by MEG33
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Two fallacies, right out of the box. That Joe McCarthy damaged the cause of anti-Communism, and that liberals, in the expression of their belief that America does not represent the best example in history of human endeavour in the realm of human rights, opportunities, and achievement, do not practice treason. Joe McCarthy was a lonely voice in speaking out against what had become an almost abject surrender to Communist influence, and the resulting din of shrieks of the sympathizers who had been exposed almost drowned out any voices supportive of Joe McCarthy.

Liberals, in their almost pathological defense of the underdog, ANY underdog, have jumped to the cause of practically anybody who has a grievance with the way government is administered. Perhaps it matters not that this trait kicks in during both Democrat and Republican administrations, but the Democrat administrations have a tendency to co-opt and integrate the protest movement with their national platform and legislative policy. There are many legitimate objections to how policy is carried out, and there should be opportunity, at least in hindsight, to explain why this or that particular line of reasoning was used in making this policy.

But that would require the parties involved to keep the discussion at some rational, dispassionate arena of ideas. The rhetoric, and the decibel level, have been raised in many instances by whoever has the biggest bullhorn, and can raise the most raucous crowds. The raucous crowds take on the appearance of (poorly-organized) armies, who seem to share the objectives and interests of external enemies of the United States, of nations and organizations that have already visited harm upon the United States.

Oh, the spokespersons of this ragtag mob say, that was only in response to the great injustices visited upon these nations and organizations by the United States at some previous time, and the US should pay reparations, not engage in retribution. The US should not engage in self-defense, but rectify the situation immediately.
15 posted on 07/25/2003 4:01:10 AM PDT by alloysteel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
When Andrew Sullivan claimed in his hit piece on Ann a few weeks ago that Ronald Radosh had told him Ann's book was a "distortion" of research he, Haynes and Klehr had done (Ann paid Radosh back by writing a column decrying the way Radosh has been treated by academia for his book "The Rosenberg File"---Proverbs 25:21-22), I was just waiting for the "other shoe to drop." Now it seems good old Dave Horowitz (who still carries Ann's column on his Frontpage Magazine site!) has organized a "stacked deck" "symposium" to "debunk" Ann's book.

I'll save a detailed response for later, but it's worth noting that many individuals who are now the "go to" people for the history of post-WW II communism have origins on the left or were initially sympathetic to American Communists or Popular Front types. Radosh initially set out to prove that the Rosenbergs had been railroaded to their deaths, and Weinstein initially got access to and the cooperation of Alger Hiss for his definitive study of the Hiss-Chambers case "Perjury," because he was at first convinced of Hiss' innocence (to their credit, both Radosh and Weinstein let the evidence change their minds, and both have paid a price for such honesty in academia).

19 posted on 07/25/2003 11:05:38 AM PDT by Map Kernow ("I love the Vixen of Vitriol---Ann Coulter")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Ann Coulter
Ping!
20 posted on 07/25/2003 11:43:02 AM PDT by pgyanke (It's worth a try...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
When, pray tell, has Hollywood ever, before or since, acted on any other principle but box office draw and profit?
Whenever they have made a R or X movie knowing that a P or PG movie would be more profitable.

22 posted on 07/25/2003 7:13:30 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The everyday blessings of God are great--they just don't make "good copy.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Estrich: . . .
The Army-McCarthy hearings were televised and recorded.  You can get them on videotape if you know where to look.  I suggest that the Pro-Joe camp invite their friends and neighbors over some night for a private screening of "Joe in Action."  If one picture is worth a thousand words, an hour of videotape should be worth a entire library of books like "Treason" and "Slander." If your friends and neighbors are not as repulsed by McCarthy's bullying and unfairness as the American public was when they first watched him in the early 1950s -- when, then, we've gone backwards as a Nation and as a People.
In Treason Ann mentioned the tape, but indicated that it had been edited down to only show McCarthy in a bad light; all McCarthy's effective statements were cut out. Is the whole tape available, or is Estrich blowing smoke over a propaganda version of the truth here?
29 posted on 07/25/2003 10:16:10 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion (The everyday blessings of God are great--they just don't make "good copy.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
[Brennan:]... Read her book Susan, you might learn something.

Estrich: In one of the reviews of Ann's book, it quotes her description of Joe McCarthy as someone ...

Let me get this right... is Estrich here actually admitting that she is caught having a critical discussion about Ann's book when she did not even read the book, much less think about what it says and look at the supporting footnotes? I believe this is what happens here, and that ought to be devastating to her credibility.

36 posted on 07/26/2003 6:05:29 AM PDT by AFPhys (((PRAYING for: President Bush & advisors, troops & families, Americans)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
...the conservative pundit and author arguably went too far by
1)defending Joseph MacCarthy
and
2) accusing all liberals of treason
...


at risk of being a "broken record", but for benefit of lurkers, I repeat the following:

...1)defending Joseph MacCarthy...

Even PBS has defended McCarthy to some degree.
Their PBS special "Secret, Lies and Atomic Spies" admits that McCarthy was right...the
USA guvmint was riddled with USSR agents/collaborators/sympathizers
AND
McCarthy was wrong on specifics BECAUSE the FBI and other agencies knowingly
witheld specific information that they (FBI, etc.) feared would compromise
convictions in the future.

2) accusing all liberals of treason...
Lawd Almighty, they do seem to travel in a pack.
There are more people of this ilk calling talk radio in Los Agneles and whining, wailing and
beating their breasts over the "murder"/"illegal assassination" of Uday and Quasy...than
there are in Baghdad (as revealed by positive comments from Iraqi citizens concerning their deaths
and the release of post-mortem photos in The Los Angeles Times; Friday, 7-25-03).
40 posted on 07/26/2003 8:00:21 AM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
The charge that Joe attacked innocent people is false - utterly false. The only people who
feared Joe were those who had something to hide. I have yet to hear of one so-called
innocent victim - and I was there during the so-called McCarthy era.


Brennan vocalizes what I've posted a couple time as my understanding of Coulter's
true, central challenge which must meet BOTH of the following conditions (in my words):
1. NAME ONE person who was falsely accussed by McCarthy of Communist collabroation/sympathies
AND
2. Additionally suffered substantively from that FALSE accussation.


I'd say I've now heard about 10 liberal callers to talk radio...lots of personal attacks
on Coulter (mostly on her previous writing, amazingly!)...and NOT ONE MENTION of
a single innocent victim of the McCarthy era.

The longer this continues, the more I think Coulter is dead on...and that TODAY's libs are
actually proving Coulter's accusations.

As they say in Texas, Oklahoma, (OK, below The Mason-Dixon Line):
If a man won't defend his honor, rest assured he probably doesn't have any.

(No different as to the question of whether Saddam is dead or not...each day that
passes without a CIA/NSA-verified voice recording from Saddam rallying his mob to
avenge the deaths of his two sons and a grandson...the more it's clear Saddam is dead
or so profoundly disabled that he can't even speak.)
42 posted on 07/26/2003 8:10:38 AM PDT by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Susan Estrich was beaten up badly at the beginning of this. She had no real documentary evidence and the others did. Then later, Estrich seemed to get a lot more reasonable and even admitted (!) that the left was wrong about Communist infiltration.
43 posted on 07/26/2003 8:11:12 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Bump for continued study.
46 posted on 07/26/2003 9:03:18 AM PDT by FrogMom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Ann Coulter..... its almost porno-graphic the way she disrobes stealth RINOs and displays them before the public as the molelike creatures they are... Now THATS talent.

What she does to the other TRAITORS is fairly easy all it takes is speaking the truth with prejudice... many have done that, howbeit way too intellectually.

Ann reduces her truth/facts/reseach/snippets to one or two sentences, something that republicans even RINOs can understand..

**Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.- Albert Einstein

47 posted on 07/26/2003 9:15:13 AM PDT by hosepipe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Goodness!! You KNOW the rules!

...

...

48 posted on 07/26/2003 9:31:40 AM PDT by RaceBannon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Good post....

Panicky lefties are on their heels -- their favorite term to shut down dissent with conservatives -- "McCarthyism" -- is (thanks to Ann Coulter) itself being exposed and ridiculed as total BS.

And as an aside, contrast any liberals' whining about McCarthy's "unwarranted and aggressive browbeating and censorship" of Communist sympathizers, with the vicious demonizing and virtual lynchings of Judge Bork, justice Thomas, and John Ashcroft during the AG's confirmation hearings for having the audacity to possess a pro-life, Christian belief system.

When will a conservative step forward to mutter those same famous words: "Senator Kennedy -- have YOU no shame??"

49 posted on 07/26/2003 9:51:01 AM PDT by F16Fighter (Ann Coulter for Attorney General... Joe Scarborough for VP...Tom Tancredo as Homeland Security Chief)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
Good work. Bookmark bump.
55 posted on 07/26/2003 1:05:21 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: DPB101
I promised yesterday to start on a detailed response to the Glazov/Horowitz "show trial" masquerading as a "symposium." Before I do so, I want to make a distinction between Professors Haynes and Klehr, who truly are scholars of distinction and well-informed about the history of US communism and its involvement in espionage for a hostile foreign power aka the "Soviet Union," and the "yowling yenta" of Democrat partisanship, Susan Estrich.

One example should suffice to discredit anything else this ignorant termagant had to say in the "symposium": In her opening screed, Estrich tosses out the old smear that McCarthy "was casting about for a Big Issue to ride into a second term. With the help of a rabidly anti-communist Catholic clergyman of the Father Coughlin-ilk, McCarthy found his issue: Reds in the Government!" This smear, so useful to liberals, Democrats, and "anti-McCarthyites," originated in a claim made by Drew Pearson, a liberal partisan dedicated to "bringing down McCarthy," that, not Pearson, but his lawyer had sat in on a luncheon in which McCarthy was supposedly casting around for an "issue" in a campaign for his re-election campaign which would take place four years later (McCarthy was elected to the Senate in 1948). The "rabidly anti-Communist Catholic clergyman of the Father Coughlin ilk" that Escrement so cravenly omits to name was according to Pearson's lawyer's recollection supposed to be the distinguished diplomat and foreign policy expert Edmund J. Walsh, who also happened to oversee famine relief efforts in the newly Soviet Russia in the 1920's and to have founded Georgetown's School of Foreign Service. (For the record, Father Walsh did consult with Sen. McCarthy but denied ever counselling McCarthy to adopt "anti-communism" as a campaign issue---it was a "campaign issue" for most Congressmen years before McCarthy was even elected). Estrich's vicious, bigoted, Catholic-baiting smear of a distinguished American who was indeed anti-communist but who could never credibly be charged with anti-Semitism is in itself a "McCarthyite" smear of the most despicable order, and both Horowitz and Glazov deserve condemnation for allowing this scoundrel to peddle her partisan attacks at this "symposium."

Now for Profs. Haynes and Klehr, whom as I said I will treat respectfully. Let me begin with Prof. Klehr's opener:

Klehr: Mr. Brennan claims never to have heard of any people falsely or maliciously attacked by McCarthy. How about James Wechsler, editor of the New York Post? Wechsler had long been public about his Communist background in the student movement of the 1930s and had for years been a vigorous and forthright anti-communist liberal.

Senator McCarthy went after him largely because Wechsler had criticized McCarthy and suggested that Communist denunciations of Wechsler were actually part of a Communist effort to make him appear to be an anti-communist.

Two points. One, according to transcripts in Herman's 2000 biography of McCarthy, McCarthy did not accuse Wechsler of continuing to be a communist---he admittedly belonged to the Communist Youth League in the '30's---but of serving "consciously or not" the communist cause. Second, if McCarthy's accusations "harmed" Wechsler, I'd like to know how. I can remember Wechsler's columns in the NY Post long after McCarthy had died. By the way, when McCarthy died in 1957, Wechsler of course called him "reckless" and all the usual epithets, but also denied that McCarthy was personally responsible for the militantly anti-communist spirit of the late '40's and '50's in America, and even called McCarthy "not unlikeable" as a person.

Even when he was attacking Communist sympathizers or fellow-travellers, McCarthy was often reckless and wrong. Did it do the anti-communist cause any good to accuse Owen Lattimore, a despicable man to be sure, of being the top Soviet spy in the United States? Whatever Lattimore's sins, that was not one of them.

There are still plenty of questions regarding Owen Lattimore's true role in Soviet espionage in the '30's and '40's--surely Ann is right to emphasize this point in her book. It is documented, and through a Chinese Communist source published in 1988, that Lattimore used Comintern channels to hire a Chinese Communist for the staff of his magazine Amerasia in 1936 who managed an espionage ring. Thousands of classified documents were found in Amerasia's New York offices in 1945. Although it is true that references to Lattimore have apparently not been found in Venona cables deciphered so far, Klehr's concession that Lattimore was merely "despicable," as if he owed back child support, does not do justice to the sheer stench emanating from the guy.

And now for Prof. Haynes:

Haynes: Let's get the dates straight. Joseph McCarthy did not emerge as an anticommunist spokesman until 1950. By that time the back of the domestic Communist movement already had been broken and anticommunism dominated both major parties. President Truman in 1948 set up a massive loyalty program to remove Communists from federal employment.

With all due respect to Prof. Haynes, this statement contains quite a bit of "spin." McCarthy "did not emerge as an anticommunist spokesman" until 1950, but it is wrong to imply that McCarthy had not paid any attention to the issue until 1950, or that he was not himself a strongly identified "anti-communist."

Haynes' assertion that the "back" of the CPUSA had been broken by 1950 is consistent with the thesis in the 1992 book he and Professor Klehr authored "The American Communist Movement: Storming Heaven Itself," that the 1948 campaign in which the CPUSA backed Henry Wallace for President effectively destroyed it as a political force. However, no one outside of the Communist party (and certain wings of the Democrat party obviously) ever expected the CPUSA to ever become an electoral force in American politics---the real concern was over Communist infiltration of, influence over, and espionage of the Federal government.

Truman did indeed set up a "loyalty program" in response to Republican pressure---remember the Republicans had taken control of Congress in 1946 in part based on their attacks on Truman's security policy. At the same time, Truman made sure that Federal employee files under the program would not be made available to Congress, not even under subpoena. It was this policy of instituting a "loyalty program" that was not subject to Congressional oversight that was one of the things that drove McCarthy into action.

Let's remember something else about that year 1950. McCarthy's Wheeling speech came right at the beginning of 1950, and the worst news about security breaches was yet to come. Later that year, the arrest of Klaus Fuchs in Britain would lead to the Rosenberg spy ring and its successful efforts on behalf of the Soviet Union to obtain nuclear secrets from top secret US installations. The security problem was by no means "handled" by 1950, and Prof. Haynes is wrong to imply it was.

Truman's Justice Department convicted the leadership of the CPUSA under the Smith Act, convicted Alger Hiss, and in 1950 arrested and later convicted the Rosenbergs, David Greenglass, Harry Gold, and Morton Sobell for espionage.

Spin again. Much of the CPUSA leadership was convicted only after McCarthy's speech, and as I noted, the Rosenberg ring was uncovered fortuitously and only after McCarthy's speech. As for Alger Hiss, anyone who knows the history of the Hiss-Chambers case knows that the initial response of the Truman Administration to Chambers' revelations was to threaten to indict Chambers for perjury! It was only after Chambers came up with the famous "Pumpkin Papers" that Truman's Justice Department had no other choice but to indict Hiss.

Most importantly, Truman, Cold War Democrats and anticommunist liberals in 1948 smashed the bold attempt of the Communists and Popular Front liberals to carve out a major role in mainstream politics through Henry Wallace's presidential campaign and the Progressive Party.

"Smashed"? Wow, sounds like Prof. Haynes has been taking rhetorical points from the Communists he's been studying. The truth is that in their "BC" (i.e., "Before Coulter") book "Storming Heaven Itself," Profs. Klehr and Haynes use nowhere near as lurid language to describe Truman's efforts---they attribute the defeat of the Wallace candidacy to a combination of boneheaded moves by the CPUSA, labor's desire to see the Republicans lose the election, and (let it be said) the honorable efforts of groups like the ADA to combat Wallace. And once again, what does the electoral demise of the CPUSA have to do with the continuing security problem that was McCarthy's focus?

The expulsion of Communist-led unions from the CIO completed the destruction of the institutional base of Communist influence in 1949.

As Richard Gid Powers makes it clear in "Not Without Honor" (Free Press, 1995), the expulsion of communists from the UAW and CIO was the direct result of the passage by a Republican Congress, over Truman's veto, of the Taft-Hartley Act, which required union leadership to swear that they were not communists in order to get the protection of the NLRA. Truman didn't have anything to do with it.

Abroad, Truman enunciated the Truman Doctrine of aid to nations facing Soviet aggression, committed America to war in Korea to stop Communist aggression, and launched the Marshall Plan that restored European prosperity and contained the internal Communist threat there.

Again check the historical record---these programs were put forth under pressure from a "partisan" Republican Congress elected in 1946.

That's all for now. Let me repeat: Profs. Klehr and Haynes are deserving of respectful attention. But they should also be challenged when they are being more polemical than scholarly, as was unfortunately the case in this "symposium."

62 posted on 07/26/2003 4:36:39 PM PDT by Map Kernow ("I love the Vixen of Vitriol---Ann Coulter")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-24 next last

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson