Judge Bork, baptized at 76

U.S. News & World Report ^ | 7/22/03 | Paul Bedard With David LaGesse

[nickcarraway]

It may be a little late to start for most, but Robert Bork, the former Supreme Court nominee who has written books decrying the decline of Western culture, has just been baptized. Rev. C. John McCloskey, who represents the conservative and activist Opus Dei arm of the Roman Catholic Church and oversaw the baptism, said, "I can confirm that he was received in the Catholic Church." Bork, a scholar with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, was raised a Protestant and had called himself a "generic Protestant." He was known more for his conservative legal views, which some Democrats used to shoot down his court nomination during the Reagan administration.

In a brief interview, he said that years of "conversations and reading" led him to baptism at McCloskey's small Catholic Information Center chapel on K Street near the White House. "There's more to talk about than you can put in a brief story." He called himself a regular Catholic who attends Sunday mass, not an Opus Dei member.

He said talks with and recommendations from the priest, as well as attending church with his wife, Mary Ellen Bork, a former nun, helped pave the way to the ceremony.

Bork's sponsors were Kate O'Beirne, a conservative media star, and John O'Sullivan, head of UPI.

Lots of other prominent Catholics were there, such as columnist and speechwriter Peggy Noonan, herself a convert.

McCloskey has made several other high-level conversions of conservatives, bringing into the Catholic Church conservative columnist Robert Novak and Republican Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas.

The best part of getting baptized at 76, said Bork: "If you get baptized at my age, all of your sins are forgiven. And that's very helpful."

According to Archdiocese of Washington Communications Director Susan Gibbs, Msgr. William Awalt, the longtime pastor of the Borks, baptized the judge, confirmed him and gave him First Communion. Father McCloskey celebrated the Mass, along with Msgr. Peter Vaghi, pastor of St. Patrick's.

[B-Chan]

Baptism will not save... -- RnMomof7
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you. - 1 Peter 3:21

Which infallible teacher to believe: Popess RnMomof7 or Pope St. Peter?

[Campion]

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. He who saw it has borne witness -- his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth -- that you also may believe.--The Evangelist John

Water never yet did anything spiritual for anyone.--Dan

[narses]

I suspect you are back on "ignore", or perhaps "irrelevant". Good night and God Bless.

[Campion]

Circumcision saved no one , its purpose was to mark out a people for God.Baptism does the same.

It certainly does that, I'll grant you that. But Paul says "As many of you as are baptized into Christ, have put on Christ." So if baptism is identical to "putting on Christ," and baptism saves no one, then "putting on Christ" saves no one. And I don't think you want to say that.

If Baptism saves why did Christ die? John could have saved everyone?

John's baptism wasn't Christian baptism, just a Jewish purification rite.

[Campion]

That's fine. I just wanted to point out the glaring contrast between Scripture and full-fledged "matter ain't never saved nobody" neo-Platonism.

[Campion]

Is it your contention that failure to do all that Jesus commanded voids salvation or that salvation is contingent or not conferred until after all things He commanded are done?

Well, yes, obviously, if the failure is culpable and not repented of.

"Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' but you do not do as I command?" It's a command to baptize, but it doesn't make water baptism necessary for salvation.

Are you going to explain to Jesus on the Last Day which of his commands were optional, and which weren't?

[nana4bush]

Thanks for that info on Father McCloskey. I am not a Catholic, but I would love to hear him. He sounds like a great man of God.

[DannyTN]

Jesus is talking about one birth, which is "of water and the Spirit".

No, in response to Nicodemus asking about a second physical birth, Jesus contrasts one birth with the other. And then he contrasts it again, flesh from flesh and spirit from spirit.

Both John 1:24-34 and John 3:22-23 are pretty far removed from that discussion. Yes Jesus was water baptized and baptized others in water. Water baptism was/is a sign of repentance. But what Jesus is talking about with Nicodemus in 3:3 is spirit baptism. And spirit baptism occurs as a result of repentance. In John 1, John the Baptist even contrasts the two.

"Everything God commands is absolutely critical."

Not to salvation or there would be no hope for any of us. That's why Jesus died, in the first place was because we didn't do everything God commands. I don't mean to minimize His commands, he gives them for a reason, and they should be obeyed. But salvation isn't dependant on doing all that God commands.

You aren't responding to the analogy, Danny, just denying that it's applicable. I think it's absolutely applicable. If baptism is empty ritual, marriage is equally empty.

Yes I'm denying that it's applicable. It's apples and oranges. Neither marriage nor baptism are empty rituals. But Baptism is not to Salvation like marriage is to love. Marriage is a covenant in itself and seals the marriage covenant, it does not seal love.

Baptism is like coming back and performing a second marriage after the honeymoon for your relatives benefit. It does not seal the salvation experience except in the sense that it's a public testimony. The salvation covenant was sealed the moment you first said your vows (asked).

Baptism is like the kiss afterwards. A symbol and public testamony of your love which occurs after you have been pronounced man and wife.

[mdmathis6]

The church of England didn't like sola scriptura either. If the big boys had in a sense..."stuck to the script", there wouldn't have been the amount of blood shed historically that occured. Christ asked his followers as he washed their feet, not to be "like the gentiles who Lord it over one another, but to serve one another. Who ever leads must be the servant of all".

[mdmathis6]

The profession of faith and baptism go hand in hand, but one can be saved without baptism(such as one who dies after a profession of faith but didn't get a chance to be baptized) but baptism itself doesn't save.

Indeed, being baptized while calling on his name sounds just about right. Or in the case of the Ethiopian Eunuch, "I believe that Jesus is the son of God", a profession of faith then baptism.

What sometimes bothers me, in some churches or sects is the length of time it takes between a profession of faith and the actual baptism. They'll put a person thru a bunch of classes(which I think are okay), but I think they really shouldn't delay. Confess Christ and get Baptized...shouldn't be any more complicated then that, no matter what type of "baptism" one feels comfortable with.

So what were we in disagreement about?

[mdmathis6]

My point exactly...they weren't controlled, a strong emphasis on Sola Scriptura, such as what the Southern Baptists preach might have helped the Catholic Church thru the years by providing a means of renewal in the church with-out the necessity ot the schisms that occurred thru the years. As a matter of fact, if the Catholics were to adopt Sola Scriptura in much the same matter as America adopted the constitution, the Church would be regenerated and the BUMS thrown out. I would even join the Catholics at that point.

[mdmathis6]

Were?

[nickcarraway]

He had his problems, but give hin credit, he turned it around.

[mdmathis6]

Sola Scriptura...the Bible being the only authority by which men and churches were to govern themselves by...

Oh man..do we start with Paul's admonition to Timothy that the word of God was "profitable for reproof and doctrine"?

How about the Psalmist "Thy word have I hid in mine heart that I might not sin against thee"?

How about the Mosaic Code written by the finger of God?


The revealed word of God was to be the sole authority by which men and churches could rely on to guide them thru false doctrines and schisms. The rules of moral conduct are fairly black and white. Other areas are left to personal discretion provided that they cause not another to stumble, or that the absolute rules of moral conduct should not be broken, or that the princi[ple of love not be violated. The promised Holy Spirit would be a guide to all truth and was promised to help with interpretation of difficult passages"not by private interpretation but by the Spirit".

The danger lies in the insertion of Supra Scriptura rituals and writings that claim to clarify the original writings but instead distort the original scriptures causing the truth sense of the Bible to be lost to the people. Christ accused the San Hedrin of doing that with the application of Talmudic style interpretations on the Torah causing the sense of scripture and Salvation to be lost to men. "Ye have taken away the Keys of knowledge, making men thrice more damned then ye-selves" he railed.

That is what the Catholic churches had done by the 15th century, providing the impetus for schism and renewal!

[graycamel]

Anti-catholic bating??? What??? I could go on about what's been in the news regarding priests if you want Catholic bashing. You are paranoid.

[graycamel]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[graycamel]

You're the only one who is right on this entire threads. Must be all Catholics here, hypersensitive ones at that.

[Berean]

I'm not Catholic and I can clearly see that the Lord has commanded us to be baptized in order to obtain salvation. Following Christ's sacrificial death for our sins and His resurrection, there is not one example of anyone being saved that does not include baptism. I think that might be important in light of:

Mark 16:16
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

I have never found an instance in the New Testament where anyone is converted and (always) baptized where the baptism was referred to as a "Spirit baptism"

Neither do the words "ask Jesus into your heart" or any similar such statement appear in scripture. Instead of trying to make the Bible validate our own beliefs, how about we take God at His Word?

Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, " Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

[Thorondir]

Thank you.

God bless.