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Judge Bork, baptized at 76
U.S. News & World Report ^ | 7/22/03 | Paul Bedard With David LaGesse

Posted on 07/24/2003 11:31:43 AM PDT by nickcarraway

It may be a little late to start for most, but Robert Bork, the former Supreme Court nominee who has written books decrying the decline of Western culture, has just been baptized. Rev. C. John McCloskey, who represents the conservative and activist Opus Dei arm of the Roman Catholic Church and oversaw the baptism, said, "I can confirm that he was received in the Catholic Church." Bork, a scholar with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, was raised a Protestant and had called himself a "generic Protestant." He was known more for his conservative legal views, which some Democrats used to shoot down his court nomination during the Reagan administration.

In a brief interview, he said that years of "conversations and reading" led him to baptism at McCloskey's small Catholic Information Center chapel on K Street near the White House. "There's more to talk about than you can put in a brief story." He called himself a regular Catholic who attends Sunday mass, not an Opus Dei member.

He said talks with and recommendations from the priest, as well as attending church with his wife, Mary Ellen Bork, a former nun, helped pave the way to the ceremony.

Bork's sponsors were Kate O'Beirne, a conservative media star, and John O'Sullivan, head of UPI.

Lots of other prominent Catholics were there, such as columnist and speechwriter Peggy Noonan, herself a convert.

McCloskey has made several other high-level conversions of conservatives, bringing into the Catholic Church conservative columnist Robert Novak and Republican Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas.

The best part of getting baptized at 76, said Bork: "If you get baptized at my age, all of your sins are forgiven. And that's very helpful."

According to Archdiocese of Washington Communications Director Susan Gibbs, Msgr. William Awalt, the longtime pastor of the Borks, baptized the judge, confirmed him and gave him First Communion. Father McCloskey celebrated the Mass, along with Msgr. Peter Vaghi, pastor of St. Patrick's.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia; US: New York
KEYWORDS: baptism; bork; catholic; catholicchurch; catholiclist; cjohnmccloskey; conservatism; conversion; faith; johnosullivan; judge; kateobeirne; larrykudlow; opusdei; peggynoonan; rcc; religion; robertbork; robertnovak; sambrownback; supremecourt; upi
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To: mdmathis6
You claim to preach BIBLICAL Christianity while sneering at the notion of Sola Scriptura...that's like cutting a stream off from its own source don't you think?

Scriptura Christianity was born at Pentecost. Sola scriptura Christianity was unknown until the Lollards invented it in the 13th century, and unrealistic until the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg.

An authentically Biblical Christian hears Paul when he commends the Thessalonians for adhering to the traditions he taught them, "whether by letter or by word of mouth".

But I don't sneer at sola scriptura; I mourn it. Because of it, the Body of Christ is riven by thousands of divisions.

141 posted on 07/24/2003 6:17:36 PM PDT by Campion
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To: mdmathis6
Sola Scriptura is also a road map back home when prodical sons..and institutions... need to find their way back home!

Well, it worked for Scott Hahn.

142 posted on 07/24/2003 6:19:36 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Flying Circus
PS -- I suspect you're not up to it. Prove me wrong about that, though! I'd love you to!

Dan
143 posted on 07/24/2003 6:22:24 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
If the crowd was composed only of Lanny Davis and Eleanor Clifts, then I wouldn't bother attending. But this is an open forum with easy as many contributers with a Protestant outlook as there are Catholics.

When a person storms out of the room refusing to continue discussions with somone they had been having a civil debate with, anyone who was listening is free and likely to assume that they lost and couldn't defend their view.
144 posted on 07/24/2003 6:29:16 PM PDT by Flying Circus (orthodoxy requires orthopraxy)
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To: Flying Circus
Chalk one up for the bible readers not reading the bible closely.

St. Paul specifically tells us not to try to interperet scripture by ourselves.
145 posted on 07/24/2003 6:30:28 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: BibChr
just to join into the fun ...

... my wife went into a panic the night before our son's baptism and insisted that he needed to be baptised NOW.
So I did, just like several people mentioned. It counted. Now we didn't mention that to the priest the next day ...

... regarding conversions, CS Lewis's writings are just the best. Recently I read some things about Tolkien and how much influence Tolkien had on Lewis's conversion.

Glad to hear Bork made a choice like this.
Maybe behind the cloud of his rejected nomination to the Supreme in this world, was the silver lining of recognizing there was another, more important thing to do with the next.
146 posted on 07/24/2003 6:36:21 PM PDT by billl
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To: LivingNet
5. The thief on the cross did not believe any of those 3 parts of the gospel as none of them had even happened yet.

The thief could have understood from the Old Testament that Jesus would die and redeem many and be resurrected.

Somehow the thief knew both that Jesus was Lord and was going to come into His kingdom and had faith that He would have mercy on Him despite that they were both dying. Jesus answer also confirmed to the man that he was headed for Paradise.

The point of Romans 4 is that it's faith that saves both in the Old Testament and new. Paul doesn't even mention baptism until chapter 6.

147 posted on 07/24/2003 6:45:52 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: nickcarraway
Thanks for the post nickcarraway,He was more than ready,Meey his beautiful wife and the Judge himself,I also know Susan,dedicated and a hard worker.Welcome Judge butyou were with us a long time before this.Start out fresh and pray for me as I prayed for you.
148 posted on 07/24/2003 6:46:15 PM PDT by fatima (Our troops are the best and we support them.)
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To: Campion
"Then why does 1 Peter 3:21 say flatly that water baptism saves? Not apart from faith, of course -- nobody believes that, including Catholics -- but integral to faith."

First it doesn't specify "water" baptism. It could be, and I believe is talking about "spirit" baptism. Water is mentioned in the previous verse as part the Noah comparison that Peter is making. But remember what John the Baptist said, I baptize you with water, but the One that is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Paul does call the Baptism of John, the baptism of repentance.

When you look at the verse it says "Baptism now saves you ... as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." It's the appeal that is doing the saving, not the baptismal ceremony.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Water baptism is important because it's the first act of obedience for a Christian, even as it was Jesus' first act of obedience upon beginning his full-time ministry. It's also a very visual testimony of what is going on in the life of the believer. But based on how many scriptures leave it out, I don't beleive it is critical to the process.

There are several sections of scripture that deal with how to obtain salvation or eternal life. I group them into three sections:

The first, are scriptures where Jesus tells people to fully obey the law in order to have eternal life. But in each case, he does this so people will recognize their sin, and recognize that they haven't obeyed the law.

The second have to do with faith in Jesus, being born again, spirit baptism and calling upon the name of Jesus. These don't mention water baptism at all, but they do mention faith or appeal in one form or another.

The third group call on having faith and include baptism. It's clear that baptism is a command. But because baptism is only included in a couple of the many scriptures telling how to be saved, it becomes obvious that it is not absolutely critical to the process.

Another place that you see this is in Jesus discussion with Nicodemus. It's clear that it's the Spirit baptism that is important.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In fact the churches I have been apart of, if a person has a medical condition that makes water immersion impractical or dangerous. The church simply votes to waive baptism for the individual.

149 posted on 07/24/2003 6:56:24 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: Puddleglum
I don't think you'll find what I wrote on any bumper sticker. Try looking into deep heaven...or the eyes of a child, or a man in prison, or the sick and lonely instead!
150 posted on 07/24/2003 7:09:02 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Campion
Because of the lack of Sola Scriptura...the blood of many souls is on the hands of a certain theocratic bureaucracy on the Tiber River!
151 posted on 07/24/2003 7:14:35 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: LadyDoc
FYI: The Catholic church will even recognize a baptism by a non believer, if the non believer does it in sympathy with the belief of the person being baptised, or his/her parent/guardian.

Had a protestant pastor who was in a hospital one night and someone mistook him for a priest and asked him to bless him. The pastor realized this aspect of catholism and blessed the guy rather than tell him that he wasn't Catholic.

152 posted on 07/24/2003 7:17:43 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: Campion
Not sure who Scott Hahn is...you'll need to elucidate. But if you want to paint with a broad brush the supposed fallacy of an idea by the failings of one man...we can start with the failings of dozens of priests controlled by a certain theocratic bureaucracy located near the Tiber River! Do you really want to go there?
153 posted on 07/24/2003 7:20:30 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Fred Mertz
Louis Freeh's brother is an Opus Dei ordained priest.
154 posted on 07/24/2003 7:20:54 PM PDT by Mr.Clark (From the darkness....I shall come)
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To: Campion
"with the objective fact that the Crucifixion was an "external ritual"?

I would never call the crucifixion a mere "external ritual". First it was necessary from a legal standpoint. God had decreed that the penalty for sin was death.

The pain and suffering that the Lord went through, from sweating drops of blood to the beatings and the lashes and the crown of thorns and then carrying the cross, the agonizing death of the cross and finally the separation from the Father.

That's hardly a ritual. That's real. That's substantive.

155 posted on 07/24/2003 7:27:34 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: Chewbacca
Chewbacca, I'll light a candle for your soul.

Seriously, why is there always someone like you that like to bring Catholics down?

Trajan88... a Baptised, Confirmed Catholic

156 posted on 07/24/2003 7:32:40 PM PDT by Trajan88
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Comment #157 Removed by Moderator

To: DannyTN
First it doesn't specify "water" baptism. It could be, and I believe is talking about "spirit" baptism. Water is mentioned in the previous verse as part the Noah comparison that Peter is making.

Danny, the context mentions water. The word "spirit" is not even used in the verse. The reason Peter brings up Noah is purely and simply because his audience will relate Noah to water, and water to baptism.

Baptism now saves you ... as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." It's the appeal that is doing the saving, not the baptismal ceremony.

What you're essentially doing is editing Scripture to conform to your POV. The verse says "baptism now saves you". Why is that such a problem? Of course it doesn't save because it is a physical washing of dirt from the body, but because it is, itself, "an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Don't say "it's the appeal that saves, not the baptism" ... the baptism is the appeal, the verse says that very clearly.

But based on how many scriptures leave it out, I don't beleive it is critical to the process.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Sorry, but Jesus seemed to think it was pretty critical. I'll defer to his authority on the question. But remember what John the Baptist said, I baptize you with water, but the One that is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Paul does call the Baptism of John, the baptism of repentance.

158 posted on 07/24/2003 7:39:55 PM PDT by Campion
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Comment #159 Removed by Moderator

To: mdmathis6
the blood of many souls is on the hands of a certain theocratic bureaucracy on the Tiber River

My namesake's blood is on the hands of a certain government and religious bureaucracy on the banks of the Thames, thank you very much. That's a Protestant religious bureaucracy, BTW.

Edmund Campion's crime was saying Mass and hearing confessions for the few, brave Catholics left in England under Elizabeth I. For his "treason," he was tortured on the rack, then hung, drawn, and quartered.

There are plenty of martyrs on both sides of the Reformation. Ask some Catholic Germans or Poles sometime how the fine Lutheran soldiers of King Gustavus Adolphus treated their ancestors during the 30 Years' War.

160 posted on 07/24/2003 7:46:57 PM PDT by Campion
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