Is the West Too Civilized?

CNSNews.com ^ | July 22, 2003 | Daniel Pipes

[thinktwice]

It is hard to be objective when you're up to your ass in alligators.

[JohnGalt]

The logical end of Herr Pipes recommendation, I guess, is to respond to the Islamofascists as fascists?

[Conspiracy Guy]

When you are dealing with the type threat we face rules need to go in the crapper. We have gone a step or two in the proper direction but we have a way to go. As GWB said in the beginning, "This will take time".. Good find

[wideawake]

Nietzsche wrote in his Zur Genealogie der Moral that the ultimate, "sublime" example of a civilized society is one which does not punish criminals in any way.

As its power increases, a community ceases to take the individual's transgressions so seriously, because they can no longer be considered as dangerous and destructive to the whole as they were formerly: the malefactor is no longer "set beyond the pale of peace" and thrust out; universal anger may not be vented upon him as unrestrainedly as before—on the contrary, the whole from now on carefully defends the malefactor against this anger, especially that of those he has directly harmed, and takes him under its protection.

A compromise with the anger of those directly injured by the criminal; an effort to localize the affair and to prevent it from causing any further, let alone a general, disturbance; attempts to discover equivalents and to settle the whole matter (compositio); above all, the increasingly definite will to treat every crime as in some sense dischargeable, and thus at least to a certain extent to isolate the criminal and his deed from one another—these traits become more and more clearly visible as the penal law evolves.

As the power and self-confidence of a community increase, the penal law always becomes more moderate; every weakening or imperiling of the former brings with it a restoration of the harsher forms of the latter. The "creditor" always becomes more humane to the extent that he has grown richer; finally, how much injury he can endure without suffering from it becomes the actual measure of his wealth.

It is not unthinkable that a society might attain such a consciousness of power that it could allow itself the noblest luxury possible to it—letting those who harm it go unpunished. "What are my parasites to me?" it might say. "May they live and prosper: I am strong enough for that!"

[joesnuffy]

when you fight in the mud...you have got to get dirty

[ZULU]

You are correct, as well the author od the cited piece. Our response should be tailored to the enemy we are facing.
Marquis of Queensbury Rules will get you a quick grave in a battle with a street fighter and the Islamofascists are street fighters. The only way we can defeat them is by overppowering them totally, with their own tactics if ncessary, and I beleive at this point, its necessary.

Western Civlization is at war with Fundmantalist Islam.

[DoctorMichael]

Is the West Too Civilized?

Yes.

[ClearCase_guy]

Victor Davis Hanson often points out that America is slow to anger, but when provoked to war, we kick major ass. The key campaign in the American Civil War was Sherman's march through the South. He "fought dirty" and made Georgia howl. It brought the war to an end. In WWII we fire-bombed Dresden and Tokyo and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Some folks are appalled by that -- but it brought the war to an end.

I agree with Pipes. If we want Terrorism to end, we've got to take the barbarians down. Hard. Fast. Repeat as necessary. No rules.

[WestPacSailor]

Where's Blackjack Pershing when you need him! The only way to truly fight these animals is to go to their lair, root them out, and kill them all. Don't arrest them, don't convert them, simply kill them all, with extreme prejudice. They'd do it to us tomorrow if they had the change.

[WestPacSailor]

Amen Brother! Gotta take it to them in terms they understand. The only thing they understand is a first-class, up close and personal a$$ whoopin'!

[Centurion2000]

Of course the West is too civilized. Too many men have been sissified by feminism and PC.

They can be sissies if they want, just let real men take care of the exernal threats and GET OUT OF OUR WAY.

[two23]

"Western Civlization is at war with Fundmantalist Islam"

Which may be closer to being a radical political regime than a "religion". How do we define and deal with regimes that hide behind a freedom that we ourselves guard with jealousy? I thought GWB was pretty clear, but obviously, some in the world don't or cannot hear clearly and are quick to critisize those who were attacked and not the attackers. If other westernized nations cannot/will not help, then they should just be quiet. Nothing worse than a back seat driver.

[A_perfect_lady]

Had the United States retaliated in kind for 9/11, Harris tells me, the Islamic holy places would have been destroyed. Had Israelis followed the Arafat model of murderousness, the West Bank and Gaza would now be devoid of Palestinians. Had the West done toward Iraq as Iraq did toward Kuwait, the Iraqi polity would long ago have been annexed and its oil resources confiscated.

I'd have supported all of these responses 100%. I have no interest in losing from the "high moral ground," and going under muttering, "Well, at least we played nice." I want to win because this is no game, this is our lives.

[spoiler2]

"Is the West Too Civilized?"

This is a relative condition.

Not that we are too civilized, but that there are elements of the Mid-East that are NOT civilized enough,....yet.

[Cronos]

Instead of doing any of this stuff (which we oughta have done) we're showering the regimes which supply the terrorists with money -- the $3 billion we gave to the Pakiregime for instance or the billions we giveSaudi when we buy their oil.

[Quix]

Some good points in this.

It sure looks like we need to obliterate Damascus. Though it sounds in The Bible like God may have that scheduled at some very momentous time. Who knows.

And North Korea has been increasingly begging to be squashed. Given the dreams and visions of so many about the puppet masters using NK for starting WWIII's invasion of our shores with nukes, it doesn't seem to me that we should wait much longer. But then, we are spread so thin.

Certainly time for plenty of ongoing prayer!

Thanks.

[Quix]

My alternate response is . . .

Civilized?

With Billdo and Shrillery Hellery Antoinette de Fosterizer de Christmas-tree-vaginas-N-penises de Sade . . . 'leading' our 'fair' land . . .

And far too soon roaming gangs and others pillaging, raping, destroying, maiming . . .

I wouldn't crow too much about our being toooo civilized tooo loudly.

Concerted efforts have been afoot for at least 50 years to shred and fracture our culture/society from within. The fruit of such has not really begun to be really harvested yet. But it will be. The puppet masters and stooges have been very skillful and very thorough.

[SouthParkRepublican]

”I'd have supported all of these responses 100%. I have no interest in losing from the "high moral ground,"

I agree with you but I’m afraid not everyone would share our viewpoint and it would be unlikely that W would get a second term. The Bush administration realized (correctly) after 9/11 that we are at war with Islam (not just radical Islam) but that it would be political suicide to come out and say it. The result is that we need a pretense for action and I think that’s why Iraq was the next one on the list (1441 was grounds enough). I think Iran will wait until after the 2004 elections and sometimes think one of the reasons that W seems to be leaning a little to close to center is that he knows his core constituency is secure and wants to make sure that he picks up enough of the center left for a decent win. I’m guessing that he is swaying more of these than he is losing independents.

I hope I am right on this and that after next November the gloves come off.

[A_perfect_lady]

I hope I am right on this and that after next November the gloves come off.

I hope so too. Oh, how I hope. OH, how I hope!