Egypt demands return of Rosetta Stone!

The Sunday Telegraph - UK ^ | July 20, 2003 | Charlotte Edwardes and Catherine Milner

[MrsEmmaPeel]

How were they preserved ? Goodness gracious, if you don't know/understand that, then there's no hope at all, that my explination would help you any. LOL

Sorry I don't buy into the Perservation Myth . And you wrote nothing that disproves the facts that I wrote: the marbles were hacked into pieces to fit into the crates, 23 crates sunk (later recovered after 2 years), for 16 years they sat in a damp climate, then there's the acid bath ...

You can't argue with facts, so you insult. Typical liberal technique. You call me Anglophobe, but do not debate.

You seem to rely on the concept of Superiority of Culture that the British have a right to the marbles, just because they are British. I find the British claim to the marbles extremely weak (considering their own report in 1816 admitted they were stolen), and I no more support theft of any culture, as I would support the Greeks claiming the Mary Rose for themselves.

How the Greeks would have cared for the marbles is irrelevant and simply not supported by the facts of how the marbles have been treated. The marbles do not belong to the Brits.

In the US, ownership of propery is respected. We don't have people going off looting other cultures and display that booty in museums -- in fact our Department of Defense goes after anyone- anyone who has been caught stealing Iraqi artifacts. Theft of another's culture is simply not in our nature. Recently, our own Supreme Court in 2001 ruled that even shipwrecked vessels-- shipwrecked in US waters belong to the country of origin -- in this case it was Spain. That was a surprise judgement to me, but it simply underscores the nature of our legal system and the respect that we hold for another's property.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I don't think the current Egyptian civilization existed when those artifacts were created either.

The modern Italy is quite different from the Ancient Roman civilization. Modern China is quiet different from ancient China. Ancient Babylonia is quiet different from modern Iraq. What's your point? Are you suggesting that we all go off on looting parties and take what we want because the underlying civilization is no more?

Those that have inherited the land, inherit the artifacts from that land. Ancient Roman artifacts, on Italian soil belong to the Italian people. Ancient Roman artifacts on Spanish soil belong to the Spanish, etc.

The Rosetta Stone was found in the Nile Delta by the French. And the Nile is in what country today?... No hurry .. take your time ... Begins with "E" ...

[MrsEmmaPeel]

They and their descendants had NOTHING to do with the building of the pyramids or the Rosetta Stone.

And the descendants of the inhabitants of the city of Bath, in England HAD NOTHING TO DO with building the enormous Ancient Roman Bath house there. What's your point?

[Cronos]

Derived from the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs, the Coptic language traces its roots to the pre-Christian era. While it has kept a few hieroglyphic characters, it is written mainly in Greek, thanks to the influence of Alexander the Great, who Hellenized the country in the third century B.C.

http://egyptworld.8k.com/egyptology.html

Egyptology is the study of Ancient Egyptian civilization. It is generally extended to include the language and archaeology of the Copts, the Christian descendents of the ancient Egyptians.

Other Unknowns The Ethiopian church has a long history as well, though parts are rather obscure. Gonzalez makes note of the strong connections with the Egyptian churches. The work of an Egyptian named Frumentius who spearheaded almost a century of missionary work in Ethiopia eventually won over Ethiopians beginning with their king. These churches shared much in common with the Coptic Christians of Egypt. The churches of Egypt were among two groups, as Gonzalez notes. One was grown into the mainstream Greco-Roman culture and the other among the Copts, people of ancient Egyptian heritage.(1, p261,262)

[Cronos]

Well put.

[pau1f0rd]

Those that have inherited the land, inherit the artifacts from that land
What do you mean by inherited? If I invade and occupy a country, is that the same as 'inheriting'?

We don't have people going off looting other cultures
Are you claiming that Britain is still doing it?

[MrsEmmaPeel]

What do you mean by inherited? If I invade and occupy a country, is that the same as 'inheriting'?

How long to plan to occuy it? The Roman baths, homes, fortress, walls in Britain belong to Britain, not to Italy, now. America has made it very clear that the artifacts of Iraq belong to Iraq, that we are there to set up a stable government. Lord Elgin on his own looted Greek treasures. He didn't need an army. For his actions, he was censured by the British, the marbles were recognized as stolen yet at the same time, the British were totally uninterested in restitution.

I simply cannot see any American going off to Iraq, looting its treasures, and then get a mixed message from the American government ("that was bad, but we'll keep them anyway").

Are you claiming that Britain is still doing it?
Since the British aren't able to apply restitution to property they recognized as stolen in 1816, there is a very real possibility that the cultural climate in Britain would condone (or at least turn a blind eye) to the looting of artifacts from other cultures. Who knows what Babylonian artifacts have been lifted? And if the British would condemn stealing Iraqi artifacts today, why do they prevent the restitution of another's property they have already acknowledged as stolen?

[Sam Cree]

"What's your point?"

My point is that the Rosetta Stone is not part of the cultural heritage of modern day Egypt.

Nor do I accept your premise, on which your conclusion is based, that everything that has ever been found, no matter when, within the geographical boundaries of modern Egypt, is the property of the "civilization" that exists there today.

[Cronos]

Nor do I accept your premise, on which your conclusion is based, that everything that has ever been found, no matter when, within the geographical boundaries of modern Egypt, is the property of the "civilization" that exists there today.

so, any ancient artifacts found within the boundaries of the US but more than 250 odd years do not belong to the US? Or Stonehenge to the English or the Colosseum to the Italians or The Acropolis to the Greeks? The present day states have no right of property over these?

[Sam Cree]

Good morning, Cronos.

"so, any ancient artifacts found within the boundaries of the US but more than 250 old years do not belong to the US?"

I happen to kind of agree with you regarding stuff that is still here.

However, IMO, artifacts taken in the past from the geographical boundaries of the United States before there was a United States (by say, England, to whom the territory belonged), are not necessarily property of the modern United States.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

My point is that the Rosetta Stone is not part of the cultural heritage of modern day Egypt.
Neither is Stonehenge part of the cultural heritage of today's modern Britain. Would this be enough justification for you to cart it away?

Nor do I accept your premise, on which your conclusion is based, that everything that has ever been found, no matter when, within the geographical boundaries of modern Egypt, is the property of the "civilization" that exists there today.
Then by the same argument, you must therefore not accept the fact that Stonehenge belongs to the British people of today. You see, I would argue that it does.

[pau1f0rd]

And if the British would condemn stealing Iraqi artifacts today, why do they prevent the restitution of another's property they have already acknowledged as stolen?
Because most countries sensibly ignore historical crimes, especially when they're against their own self-interest. According to your black and white logic, the American government should return America to its original occupiers. Now if ever the colonial Europeans stole a national treasure, this was the big one!

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Because most countries sensibly ignore historical crimes, especially when they're against their own self-interest.
Now you're being honest, and I can't fault you for that. Yes it was a crime. It was a crime at the time an officially recognized as a crime by the British Government. But nothing was done. The doing nothing becomes a bigger crime.

According to your black and white logic, the American government should return America to its original occupiers
We were talking about artifacts, and their ownership. I'm not up on American/Indian Law. I know we've had treaties with the Indians, I know they have been broken, but I also know today, that if an object is found and proved to have once belonged to the Cherokee Nation, then I believe that the object reverts to the Cherokee Nation, no matter where it was found.

[pau1f0rd]

Now you're being honest
Sometimes I try it as a last resort...

We were talking about artifacts, and their ownership
I can't see the difference between different types of property. Why are artifacts different to money, or gold, or land, or slaves, or animals?

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I can't see the difference between different types of property. Why are artifacts different to money, or gold, or land, or slaves, or animals?

That's a good question. I'll do my best to respond.

Those things created by man - whether handaxes, Rosetta Stones, Parthenon marbles, gold coin can be termed artifacts. Whether its an item of art is usually determined by professionals in that discipine. "I just found a stupid looking stone" says one person, "Oh, my God", says another -- "you just found a hand axe and proof that the bronze age culture was in this location."

Land, slaves and animals are not man-made, but that doesn't mean that they weren't sought after commodities. This element can open up the debate to regions where I'd prefer not to tred.

Right now, I'd prefer to continue to discuss ownership of (man-made) property. I've firmly believe and I've stated so many times that the Parthenon marbles belong to Greece -- I sincerely believe that the British claim on the marbles is (legally) very, very weak. Their claim on the Rosetta stone doesn't seem to me to be that strong, either. And I'm judging the British not by today's values, but by their own values at the time. You see, if the report of 1816 claimed that Lord Elgin did no wrong doing, and in fact praised him for his efforts, then I would have to say: "Oh, well, then was then, now is now." But that wasn't the case. The British in 1816 knew what Elgin did was thievery and stated so. By those standards, by the standards of 1816, the fact that the British knew the items to be stolen and have not done anything about it, is very puzzling.

But here's another hypothetical case that I would have no idea how to judge. Suppose a viking ship is discovered in international waters, off the coast of Greenland by an American team. Which Governments would have the legal claim to the ship: Greenland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway or USA? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea.

[Sam Cree]

I agree that Stonehenge belongs to modern England. But if the Romans had carted it away during their occupation of Britain, before there was an England, then I would not think that modern day England would necessarily have much claim for assuming ownership of it.

[Sam Cree]

I wonder if the French are contemplating giving back that obelisk in the Place de la Concorde?

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I wonder if the French are contemplating giving back that obelisk in the Place de la Concorde?

I thought the obelisk was a gift from the Ottoman Sultan's viceroy Mohammad Ali to Louis Philippe.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I agree that Stonehenge belongs to modern England.
Thank you.

But if the Romans had carted it away during their occupation of Britain, before there was an England, then I would not think that modern day England would necessarily have much claim for assuming ownership of it.
I agree with you. It all depends, I suppose as to where the Romans carted it. If it was carted to the Falkland Islands, the Brits might still be in luck. If it was carted to Gaul/France - forget it!

BTW: what's your thought regarding the 2001 Supreme Court decision that upheld the right of Spain to reclaim their shipwrecked vessels - even though they were shipwrecked on US territory? I must admit, that one surprised me.

[Sam Cree]

A guy here in FL found, in shallow water one of those old Spanish wrecks, right off Miami. The state said that as it was in state waters, it belonged to the State of Florida, the guy was out of luck.

And you probably remember Mel Fisher, who found the Spanish treasure ship "Atocha," sunk off Key West. In that case, the Feds claimed it, but Fisher eventually prevailed in court, and became famous and got to keep all the gold.

That 2001 decision seems way out in left field to me, tho I am not a lawyer. But clearly the Spanish monarchy, which owned those ships, no longer exists. That is, if the ships are from that era? Salvage law is way outside my field of knowledge.

To tell you the truth, I liked it better when if you found a treasure ship, you got to claim it yourself, without all kinds of governments from everywhere you can think of trying to take over. Although perhaps such an ideal situation never truly existed.

One of my friends, who is a professional diver, found a couple old wrecks from probably the Spanish era in Florida waters. He thinks there isn't any gold on them, but I wonder. I believe it took Fisher a couple years after finding "Atocha" to locate the treasure. Anyway, he doesn't want to bother, so they are just lying on the bottom, "undiscoverd."