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When the Berlin Wall fell, a lot of formerly "secret" scientific research began to leach into the West -- where it's been percolating ever since. This essay attempts to capture some of the main thrusts of that body of thought and its relevance to contemporary scientific problems in the fields of physics, biology, and artificial intelligence (among others.)
1 posted on 07/05/2003 4:20:08 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; unspun; Phaedrus; logos; beckett; cornelis; Diamond; r9etb; gore3000; tortoise; ...
This runs long, and is hard work. But IMHO it is totally worth the time and energy expended! I welcome your thoughts...if you have the interest and the motivation.
2 posted on 07/05/2003 4:25:42 PM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
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To: betty boop
I have not been aware of these researchers. For most of my life I have been a "materialist". I note that the word "causality" is never mentioned in this essay, which is interesting.

I believe in strict causality, at least in the macro world, at least in realms accessible to human perception.

The tension between strict causality and free will is well known.

When someone claims to have free will, he or she is saying [my translation] "My outputs are not functions of my inputs." Very well, the question fairly leaps out: What are they functions of?

Heisenberg uncertainty does not rescue free will: a random robot is still a robot.

So I believe(d) in "strong AI", in other words that we could eventually construct an intelligent machine. If the world is reducible to physics, strong AI sort of follows.

Now:

Of late I have been reading widely in Buddhism (no worries; a 52-year-old Jew is not going to convert to Buddhism) and also on the nature of Time. Having convinced myself (on grounds other than his) that Julian Barbour is correct and that the passage of time is an illusion (a phenomenon, a perception...not 'really' real), and mixed up with all the Buddhism I've absorbed...I have come around to the ideas expressed here that "structural science has arrived at the frontier of a deep reality, which is outside of space and time (Drãgãnescu, 1979, 1985), and has opened the doors of a realm of reality in which phenomenological processes become predominant."

Not to say I understand all of this, but it "integrates" much of my reading into a semi-coherent whole.

I am still deeply confused (who is not?) about the nature of time. And why does causality appear regnant at our level?

I was trained as a scientist and engineer; these conclusions represent a difficult and painful journey.

Buddhism (among many other things) tells us to cease our constant conceptualizing; the world cannot be understood via concepts. But my JOB is to do little more than fancy conceptualizing....the outcome of which (among other things) is Neil Armstrong's bootprints on the Moon, rather undeniable.

So conceptualizing works (in a limited regime). But does it lead us anywhere that is not ultimately sterile?

Very strange.

And, BTW, it is fascinating that modern theories of the origin of the Universe can be boiled down (oversimplified) to "LET THERE BE LIGHT!"...

--Boris, bemused

5 posted on 07/05/2003 5:49:40 PM PDT by boris
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To: betty boop
"We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute…"

Oddly enough, we see this same pseudo-science slit-filtering process taking place on a daily basis right here in these threads. This guy just defined his religion/god, not science.

6 posted on 07/05/2003 5:51:25 PM PDT by ALS ("this is a book which contains the basis of natural history for our views" Marx on Origin of Species)
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To: betty boop
I can't agree with some of the speculation here, but some of the basic points are perfectly reasonable. Philosophical realism is very different from philosophical materialism. Materialism simply cannot account for all of the phenomena. Most obviously, it contradicts our own strong sense that we can think and can make free choices. But a purely materialist explanation of the universe has to say that such beliefs are illusory. We only think that we are thinking or that we have anything like a "self."

Simplistic nineteenth-century materialism already was breaking down under the findings of atomic science and physics in general. The old atomistic or billiard ball model no longer has any credibility.

Thomas Nagel, one of the country's most respected philosophers, has recently admitted that it's extremely difficult to find an basis for having rational discussion or rational philosophical discourse without bringing in religion--which he refuses to do. As Christians would say, without the Logos, there's no reason why the universe should be rational or why our logic should correspond to it in any way.
9 posted on 07/05/2003 6:10:40 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: betty boop
Self-ping for later. Looks interesting.
13 posted on 07/05/2003 6:27:56 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: betty boop
“Quantum theory states that whatever is meant by the word reality, it has to be non-local and counter to the view of local, realistic classical theories..."

All I hope is that I live long enough to see quantum mechanics thrown into the trash heap of ridiculous physics theories. It will happen.

"Nonlocal" is a deceptive way of saying "instantaneous action at a distance" (IAD). Any dynamic physical theory that requires or predicts IAD is bogus. The theory may be bogus because it is fundamentally a static theory (Newtonian gravity) or rotten to the core because it predicts IAD (quantum mechanics).

19 posted on 07/05/2003 7:01:54 PM PDT by mikegi
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To: betty boop
truly revolutionary stuff! thanks for the post

(i'll have to read it slowly since my eyes are starting to glaze over)

21 posted on 07/05/2003 7:21:39 PM PDT by chilepepper (Clever argument cannot convince Reality -- Carl Jung)
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To: betty boop
CURIOUS PLACEMARKER
27 posted on 07/05/2003 7:59:33 PM PDT by goodseedhomeschool (Evolution is the religion for men who want no accountability)
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To: betty boop
Consciousness is not any kind of natural principle in its own right, but is merely the epiphenomenon of the electrochemical activity of a (more or less random) succession of brain states.

I read philosophy kinda slowly, so this is as far as I got in this one. It is my understanding that consciousness is simply the latest, and maybe not the final, complexification of phenomena that are inherent in all matter and is latent in all atoms or subatomic particles until they become organized sufficiently. Whatever epiphenomena it might be, it is a level in itself but otherwise nothing special--totally natural and material.

29 posted on 07/05/2003 8:10:36 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: betty boop
All meaning is vested in the observer.
31 posted on 07/05/2003 8:15:51 PM PDT by Old Professer
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To: betty boop
Bump for reading later with (lots more) time....
40 posted on 07/05/2003 9:36:57 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: betty boop
BB,

Very interesting and something that I have questioned in the way of evolution. Why and how does life come together. There has been simple no success in animating life from inanimate matter. I do not believe that if you could build a cell molecule by molecule that it would be alive. I am relative certain that we are going to find out that quntum physics and sub atomic particles play a huge role in what we know call genetics. As my physics professor once said "Nothing is fundamental".

Regards,
Boiler Plate

46 posted on 07/06/2003 12:13:26 AM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: betty boop
Thanx for posting this, betty boop.

Archive initiated.

50 posted on 07/06/2003 12:35:23 AM PDT by rdb3 (Nerve-racking since 0413hrs on XII-XXII-MCMLXXI)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; All
About half way through, midst ADD style musings and diversions and dozing (which may be the best way to study such things as this, at least for me). I'll probably be able to make some comments or ask some questions.

For the time being, though, I thought I'd contribute this, that I just found:
http://www.macroinformation.org/
52 posted on 07/06/2003 3:11:59 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love." - No I don't look anything like her but I do like to hear "Unspun w/ AnnaZ")
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To: betty boop
Very nice, Sister Jean.
Kef & Drãg: It is evident that the structural science has arrived at the frontier of a deep reality, which is outside of space and time (Drãgãnescu, 1979, 1985), and has opened the doors of a realm of reality in which phenomenological processes become predominant. This level of reality is the source of all that is phenomenological, and also is the source of the deep energy used and formed by phenomenological information into strings, membranes or elementary particles.
An impotant anthropological)principle here is that man may actually realizes where means of measurement break down, yet his ability to understand continues.

AGrand: The principle of life has to be acknowledged as an ultimate principle which is at least as important as the basic physical principle, and which involves just the same extent of “objectivity” as the physical principle.
Yes indeed.  Basic is as basic does.
AGrand: Regarding the origin of the principle of biology, it cannot result from the physical laws by a physical principle, since the ultimate principle of physics acts just the contrary to the life principle. Therefore, the life principle shows up as an independent ultimate principle above the realm of physics.
There is much of interest here, to the Christian, when we consider the Lord's intentions for this Universe -- and the difference there will be in the new.

Kef & Drãg: In their own environment (informatter) the generation of phenomenological senses cannot be described formally, it is a non-formal process, although a general frame of tendencies for such phenomena are perhaps present. This process of non-formal processing might explain the phenomena of intuition and [creativity] of the mind and consciousness.

Not formally definitive for us four dimentional types...

Yet, there are events epiphenomenal to the various activities of the mind (and heart) consciousness (and spirit) which are definitively measurable....  (And really, what isn't that?)

107 posted on 07/06/2003 4:28:34 PM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love." - No I don't look anything like her but I do like to hear "Unspun w/ AnnaZ")
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To: betty boop
bump for later
263 posted on 07/08/2003 12:56:53 PM PDT by Fzob (Why does this tag line keep showing up?)
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To: betty boop
Bump for later reading.
268 posted on 07/08/2003 1:21:00 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: betty boop
Placemarker
452 posted on 07/10/2003 9:14:51 PM PDT by goodseedhomeschool (Evolution is the religion for men who want no accountability)
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To: betty boop
From Neal Stephenson's The Cryptonomicon, pages 6-7:

The boy had a peculiar relationship with sound. When a fire engine passed, he was not troubled by the siren's howl or the bell's clang. But when a hornet got into the house and swung across the ceiling in a broad Lissajous, droning almost inaudibly, he cried in pain at the noise. And if he saw or smelled something that scared him, he would clap his hands over his ears.

One noise that troubled him not at all was the pipe organ in the chapel at Bolger Christian College. The chapel itself was nothing worth mentioning, but the organ had been endowed by the paper mill family and would have sufficed for a church four times the size. It nicely complemented the organist, a retired high school math teacher who felt that certain attributes of the Lord (violence and capriciousness in the Old Testament, majesty and triumph in the New) could be directly conveyed into the souls of the enpewed sinners through a kind of frontal sonic impregnation. That he ran the risk of blowing out the stained-glass windows was of no consequence since no one liked them anyway, and the paper mill fumes were gnawing at the interstitial lead. But after one little old lady too many staggered down the aisle after a service, reeling from tinnitus, and made a barbed comment to the minister about the exceedingly dramatic music, the organist was replaced.

Nevertheless, he continued to give lessons on the instrument. Students were not allowed to touch the organ until they were proficient at the piano, and when this was explained to Lawrence Pritchard Waterhouse, he taught himself, in three weeks, how to play a Bach fugue, and signed up for organ lessons. Since he was only five years old at the time, he was unable to reach both the manuals and the pedals, and had to play standing-or rather strolling, from pedal to pedal.

When Lawrence was twelve, the organ broke down. That paper mill family had not left any endowment for maintenance, so the math teacher decided to have a crack at it. He was in poor health and required a nimble assistant: Lawrence, who helped him open up the hood of the thing. For the first time in all those years, the boy saw what had been happening when he had been pressing those keys.

For each stop-each timbre, or type of sound, that the organ could make (viz. blockflote, trumpet, piccolo)-there was a separate row of pipes, arranged in a line from long to short. Long pipes made low notes, short high. The tops of the pipes defined a graph: not a straight line but an upward-tending curve. The organist/math teacher sat down with a few loose pipes, a pencil, and paper, and helped Lawrence figure out why.

When Lawrence understood, it was as if the math teacher had suddenly played the good part of Bach's Fantasia and Fugue in G Minor on a pipe organ the size of the Spiral Nebula in Andromeda-the part where Uncle Johann dissects the architecture of the Universe in one merciless descending ever-mutating chord, as if his foot is thrusting through skidding layers of garbage until it finally strikes bedrock. In particular, the final steps of the organist's explanation were like a falcon's dive through layer after layer of pretense and illusion, thrilling or sickening or confusing depending on what you were. The heavens were riven open. Lawrence glimpsed choirs of angels ranking off into geometrical infinity.

564 posted on 07/12/2003 8:28:13 PM PDT by boris (The deadliest Weapon of Mass Destruction in History is a Leftist With a Word Processor)
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To: Berosus; blam; Do not dub me shapka broham; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion; ValerieUSA

seen it?


717 posted on 03/10/2005 11:10:14 AM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, February 20, 2005.)
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