Soldier In Prison On Backdrop Of Religious-Secular Tensions In Army (Refused to Attend Dance)

Israel National News (Arutz 7) ^ | July 3, 2003

[Alouette]

A hesder soldier - one who combines yeshiva studies and military service in a five-year program - is currently imprisoned for a week in a tough military jail for refusing to take part in a mixed dance.

The punishment came after a week of strife between some 25 hesder soldiers and their battalion commander regarding how they should spend a few days of semi-vacation.

Although it is generally accepted in the army that hesder students are permitted to return to their yeshivot during these "social" weeks, the commanders in this particular case felt differently. They originally demanded that the soldier-students spend the entire week with their battalion, so as to "tighten bonds in the battalion," but the soldiers said that they had no interest in vacationing with the female soldiers and the like. The commanders finally agreed to a compromise of sorts, but still insisted that they take part in a day that included mixed dancing. At one point, the soldier in question said he was told to enter a circle of "immodestly dressed girls" and facilitate their dancing by clearing away chairs. He refused, and was put on military trial.

During the trial, the battalion commander insisted that the order was legal, but the soldier responded, "Not according to Halakhah [Jewish law]." The commander said, "If you violate your faith, you'll be able to live with that, but if you violate the army rules, you'll have to pay dearly." The soldier said, "I'm willing to pay the price." He began his weeklong sentence yesterday, at a prison known for "not letting the prisoners rest."

The soldier has asked that a public struggle not be waged on behalf of his speedy release from prison, but rather in protest of the violation of the principle that soldiers need not fulfill - or receive - military orders that negate Halakhah. Arutz-7's Ariel Kahane reports that he is awaiting a response from the IDF Spokesperson on the matter.

[Alouette]

Let's see now. First the anti-religious gang complains that the Orthodox are shirking their military duty. Then when an Orthodox soldier volunteers he is punished for not wanting to participate in a dancing party!

Can someone explain how a dancing party has to do with national security? Or is the only purpose for bringing Orthodox soldiers into the IDF is "anti-religious coercion" from the same people who complain so loudly about alleged "religious coercion."

[Alouette]

ping

[wideawake]

I'm sure the Shinui MKs are outraged and will call for an immediate rectification of this situation.

After all, they aren't anti-religious, they simply insist that everyone have equal rights.

[Scubes]

Hmmmm....what if... this took place in a foreign army.........

" During the trial, the NON-JEWISH battalion commander insisted that the order was legal, but the soldier responded, "Not according to Halakhah [Jewish law]." The NON-JEWISH commander said, "If you violate your faith, you'll be able to live with that, but if you violate the army rules, you'll have to pay dearly." The soldier said, "I'm willing to pay the price. "

What opinion would one have of the battalion commander and the army in question then?

[Prodigal Son]

One of those things isn't it? Was the order legal or not? A week's imprisonment doesn't sound like the end of the world.

[Cicero]

This is really dumb. This officer has, hopefully, succeeded in ending his own career, since he seems incapable of undertanding how to instill good morale in his troops.

There are always tensions between secular and religious Jews in Israel, and sometimes the religious Jews are at fault, too; but not in this case, IMHO.

[goody2shooz]

I was in the U.S.Navy at one time. The first group of spooks I was assigned with on rotating watch would, with out fail, drive to a whorehouse after our last night of duty. Being the only female in the group, obviously I was not included.

Later, after two cases of syphllis, they were ordered to stop that activity. So they played baseball on our first day of break. I chose to do my laundry.

[Alouette]

What is the difference? The soldier was not ordered to carry out a MILITARY COMMAND, something that was a matter of LIFE AND DEATH. He was not even commanded to tear down a "settlement." He was ordered to participate in a social entertainment that involved a violation of the tenets of his faith. Would you feel any differently if a BAPTIST soldier was ordered to dance, or if a MORMON was ordered to drink a beer.

We will not mention the uproar that would ensue if a MUSLIM soldier was ordered to do either of these things.

[kms61]

Not to speak for the original poster, but I suspect she was referring to Intelligence or Cryptographic types. Spook is a slang term often used to refer to them.

[kms61]

The question is was it a lawful order. If it was not, he was right to refuse it. If it was a lawful order, he was in the wrong, and should shut up and take his punishment.

[Alouette]

The question is was it a lawful order. If it was not, he was right to refuse it. If it was a lawful order, he was in the wrong, and should shut up and take his punishment.

The legality of the order is in dispute. If Israeli soldiers can dispute orders to tear down settlements (if they are "right-wing"), or to protect settlers (if they are "leftists"), then a Captain Queeg-type control freak who makes up these kind of arbitrary and capricious orders to attend a stupid dance can certainly be challenged.

[Salem]

Reminds me of the situation Army Spc Michael New was in. Was he right to defy a direct order and not wear UN colors? Hell yes! He made an oath to the US Constitution, not the corrupt UN tower of Babel.

But he paid a price to take a stand for what is right. Sometimes you have to do that to take a stand on an obvious principle.

[BabsC]

What opinion would one have of the battalion commander and the army in question then?

If it concerned "military activity" I'm with the commander and army, OTOH if it's about an after hours dance I'd have to go with the recruit and his religion.

[goody2shooz]

Excuse me; we did communications intelligence. And it is still classified.