Harvard and ROTC

Harvard College Admissions and Financial Aid book | 2003 | Not listed

[Spyder]

Our daughter has been receiving numerous college come-ons recently. Most of the elite schools sending out books and application material stress their diversity with academics being mentioned only secondarily. MIT's book had the disclaimer at the very first page, "Not just for geeks."

Harvard, however, takes the cake for leftism out of control.

Here follows their paragraph on ROTC.

"Reserve Officers' Traning Corps courses are offered at MIT by three services and are open to Harvard students by cross-registration. At this time, it is the policy of the military services to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation, a policy inconsistent with Harvard's values as stated in its policy on nondiscrimination. Students should be aware of restrictions on the free speech of cadets imposed by one or more of the military services, and that there may be certain academic requirements for eligibility for ROTC scholarship aid. Students should also be aware that the military may require the repayment of scholarship funds if a student's sexual orientation results in his or her discharge from ROTC.

[Spyder]

ROTC places restrictions on freedom of speech??!! Somehow I'd be willing to bet ROTC is more permissive of freedom of speech than Haaahhhvaahd is with regard to conservative beliefs.

[Spyder]

Ping this to the leftism on campus group if you think it applicable. Thanks!

[WellsFargo94]

You are right on with Harvard being non-accepting! No mention of ROTC being a healthy alternative to shenanigans that take place at fraternities/sororities. Forget service to one's country and pride associated with it.

[dufekin]

You might want to head to University of Virginia, a nice conservative place with extremely strong academics, albeit where a deceased Democrat seemingly holds the status of a demigod. Or better yet Virginia Tech; they're very pro-military.

[TrueBeliever9]

Students should be aware of restrictions on the free speech of cadets imposed by one or more of the military services

Is there free speech at Harvard? Only if you hate America and everything that it stands for.

[Spyder]

Actually, we toured UVa the first week of June. I worked there for 6 years, absolutely loved the place. I believe one of my favorite political commentators is there, Larry Sabato. Our daughter didn't care for the formal, preppy atmosphere, however. It is a good school, though.

Right now she's leaning primarily toward Cal Poly San Luis Obispo (which may be difficult coming from out of state), Rice (expensive), or UT Austin (difficult for white admission). She wants architecture and has scooped out a lot of the colleges recommended by folks here on line. A California school would be nice for the price of the flights - most airlines have relatively reasonable rates between LA or SF and Honolulu. UH isn't completely out of the question, but their architecture program isn't as highly rated as the schools she wants.

[Hobsonphile]

Leftism on Campus ping!

If you would like to be added to the Leftism on Campus ping list, please
notify me via FReep-mail.

Regards...

[El Gato]

UT Austin (difficult for white admission).

They changed that policy after losing a major lawsuit. My daughter squeezed into the law school right after that, when many *qualified* minorities didn't go there after applying and being accepted, on the brainwashed notion that the lawsuit loss meant it woudld be a "hostile" envrionment.

That said, I wouldn't send my kid to such a place as an undergrad. (UT-Austin is known as Berkely on the Colorado for example) Find a smaller school, Rice is a good choice in fact, at least for the first couple of years if necessary. UT and other large state schools aren't so bad for grad school.

[Spyder]

We were at Ft. Hood for 2 years (1999-2001) and have friends in Killeen, which is why UT remains a choice. I do know how liberal it is, though. Cal Poly still tops the list, though.

The program she wants is a 5-year Bachelor of Architecture, and it isn't really divided into upper and lower class areas per se. If you're admitted, you are really expected to stay for the whole 5 years, as opposed to liberal arts where you really don't get full into your major courses till your junior/senior years.

[TheBigB]

My alma mater, Mississippi State, has an excellent School of Architecture, and a healthy ROTC on campus.

http://www.sarc.msstate.edu/

http://www.msstate.edu/dept/militaryscience/info/

[RonF]

If you're looking for a top School of Architecture, note who's actually hosting the above-mentioned ROTC unit. While there are certainly leftists on the MIT campus, there are conservatives as well, and they've managed to see their way though to keeping ROTC on campus. Members of the Paul Revere Battalion (the oldest ROTC unit in the U.S., according to them) are made up of students from MIT, Harvard, Wellesley, Tufts, Endicott College, and Salem State. And MIT's School of Architecture is one of the best in the world.

[Spyder]

She still has that one (MIT flyer) - again, cost for MIT is a big factor, not to mention the increased time and distance between the East Coast and Hawaii. She'd never consider Harvard; we just found the statement on ROTC appalling. Cal Poly SBO ranks #1 or 2 from most of the architecture sources we've found, though MIT, Cornell, Rice, and UT Austin are also in the top 10.

[TheAngryClam]

Being from California and nearing the end of my higher education career, I'd suggest not spending the insane amounts of money it will cost you to send her to Cal Poly from out of state, unless she wants to study architecture or a closely related subject (in which they're quite good).

There are several reasons for this: (1) the other schools that you named significantly academically outclass Cal Poly, except in architecture and a few of the engineering sciences (2) Cal Poly is less known as a "good school" outside of the local area than some of the other schools you mentioned are. (3) The price of attendance at Cal Poly for out of state tuition will be comparable to a Harvard education, and California tends to soak the out of staters before starting on the in-staters (4) even when she establishes California residency for tuition purposes, the bill is still going to get higher. The CSU system to which Cal Poly belongs is currently proposing a 33% increase in undergraduate tuition for in state students (5) you'd be sending her to the real-life version of Atlas Shrugged, California, which I am eager to leave.

If she's interested in moving to California, and is as qualified as the schools she's considering make her appear, I'd consider either Stanford or one of the UC schools (particularly Berkeley, Los Angeles, and if she's interested in biotechnology or medical school, San Diego as well), especially if she's a true academic standout. There is a program for the top one half of one percent of the admitted students at the UC schools called the Regents' Scholarship, which is extremely useful. At many of the campuses, it provides automatic in-state tuition, along with priority class registration and guaranteed on-campus housing. Anyone familiar with a large state college will be quick to tell you how invaluable such things can be.

Full disclosure: I attended UC Berkeley for my undergraduate education (hence the loathing of Stanford. I got the last laugh, our Classics program is second to none, and Stanford's isn't even in the top 15) and had a regents' scholarship, which smoothed things over for me quite nicely. There is an active and quite vocal conservative movement there, complete with a regularly published and well-known magazine, but the environment still becomes extraordinarily irritating. I had to leave, so I graduated early.

I am currently attending law school at UCLA (mostly because I'm cheap and didn't want to move to New York), and it's more of the same here, full of university administrators ignoring the clear will of California voters that affirmative action should be banned, and general hatred of conservatives. However, unlike Berkeley, Westwood is a clean and fairly chain-store dominated area. To get the true urban decay and irritating homeless panhandlers and Green Party members, one needs to make a short trip out to Santa Monica.

I've heard that, on the whole, the University of Chicago is also fairly politically conservative (as universities go), and I almost went there as an undergraduate because of it's excellent archaeology program.

I suppose a lot of this advice hinges on what she thinks she wants to study.

[TheAngryClam]

And actually reading to the end, I see the word architecture.

Cal Poly is the best bet of the California schools, because she will be able to establish residency after a year (if she doesn't come home for the summer), and then it's fairly inexpensive.

San Luis Obispo is a good long drive from either SF or LA, so you might want to consider that when thinking of flights.

[Spyder]

From what we've picked up on the various websites, Cal Poly seemed "relatively" inexpensive for out-of-state. I think we figured around $20K as I recall including room and board (though I may be off by $5K). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[RonF]

I won't deny that cost at MIT is a big factor, but they have ROTC scholarships available if you're looking at ROTC and not just reacting to their attitude about it. We actually had a Hawaiian in our fraternity house when I was there. He never mentioned the distance to his home, but there was a bit of a shock regarding the weather, I'd guess.

[RonF]

Oh, and as far as the "Not Just for Geeks" notation on MIT's flyer; the 'Tute's academic reputation is well known, so they weren't trying to deny or cover up that. The issue is more that the Institute doesn't want kids who will just show up, retreat to their dorm rooms between classes, and leave with a degree. They want kids who are somewhat more well rounded (for example, I was in the choir there) and will contribute to the MIT community in some fashion. The image of the Institute is that it's full of nothing but geeks and tools, so they'd like to counter that.

[Non-Sequitur]

Harvard dropped ROTC during the Viet Nam War, IIRC. On the other hand, the University of Illinois NROTC continues to crank out outstanding Naval Officers (like your's truly).

[Poseidon]

What course? 1 & 13 Grad myself...

[TheAngryClam]

It is almost on a par with private education for out of state students.

However, California, knowing that it doesn't have enough of a budget problem already ($34 billion out of a total budget that's $100 billion today, and was $78 billion in 1998), has the state universities give copious advice (here's UC Santa Barbara's version) on establishing residency, which takes a year.

Essentially, your daughter will need to apply for a California drivers' license and register to vote in California post haste. If she's planning on bringing a car to college, register that in California (yes, our car tax went up by 300% this year, but it'll save you more on tuition than it'll cost you), and have her file a state tax return even if she's not working.

The big catch for you as parents will be that she needs to demonstrate an intention to remain in California permanently for an indefinite period of time. What this means for you is that she absolutely must not come home for the summer and get a job there, as that's seen as proof that her presence in California is entirely for the education.