Posted on 06/19/2003 12:59:58 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
Really, dozens of fuel tank explosions in 747s. I did not know that. Do you have a list of these occurences that you would like to share?
How about if you peruse the NTSB report and look for this section:
"1.18.1 Accident Record and History of Fuel Tank Fires/Explosions on Airplanes"It will be found in amongst documents accessable from either:
the main page: NTSB TWA800 Accident Investigation
or
Factual Reports and other selected Docket Materials for Investigation DCA96MA070
As far back as 1996 they knew that the center fuel tank didn't bring down TWA 800. Check here.
"Insufficient proof"
I need a more auhoratative cite than an article in the NYT dated August 1996 ... although my own views, personnally, run to another source as the initial event that brought down TWA Flt 800 ...
The captain of Eastwind flight 507 told the witness group that he had observed a “pretty bright landing light” and that he watched it “on and off for over two minutes, minimum, but I probably had seen him [the light] for over five minutes.” (From page 19 of the interview transcript, which appears as Appendix Z to the Witness Group Chairman’s Factual Report).I thnk the 'bright light' they saw was the #3 and #4 engines fodded and and issueing flames as the engines had been fodded during UAL Flt 811's event years ago were ......
The FO [First Officer of Eastwind flight 507] (witness #138) recalls that Captain David Mclaine [of Eastwind flight 507] mentioned seeing on the horizon, some fifeteen to twenty miles away, what appeared to be two landing lights. Mclaine described these lights as being very close together, causing him to think that these were the landing lights of a small aircraft such as a Lear Jet. He remained focused on the lights for what seemed to be about a minute, and then the explosion occurred. (138 stated he believes at some point after seeing these lights on the horizon, Mclaine turned on the "507's" lights to better illuminate their aircraft for other airplanes in the vicinity.)
When Mclaine later related this story to 138 and it was determined that the airplane in question turned out to be a 747 Jumbo Jet, one of the largest in the sky, 138 advised he immediately speculated that TWA 800 was already on fire before it exploded and fell from the sky. In essence, since the configuration of these lights on the horizon was very unusual, what Mclaine observed could have been the early stages of a fire aboard TWA airplane and not landing lights.
I see. Two fodded engines on fire, for between two and five minutes, as TWA 800 climbs out over the Atlantic, and not one distress call? No fire warning lights? No hysterical passengers in the rear of the plane screaming THE PLANE'S ON FIRE!? Nobody had a clue that the plane was burning?
Even if two engines were on fire, at that speed and altitude the flames would have cooked the engines, but not made the aircraft explode. There would have been no way that the pilots would not have received cockpit fire warning lights, and declared an emergency. Even on the very remote chance that the pilots didn't know that two of their four engines were on fire, those "fodded" engines would not be making power, and they would have noticed THAT and immediately declaired an inflight emergency and requested priority revectoring to JFK or La Guardia.
Your theory is the most ridiculous one I've heard yet. I give the "errant meteorite" theory more credence than yours.
You obviously aren't familiar with previous accidents involving the B747 series of aircraft AND cargo bay doors ...
That makes you highly uninformed and ignorant on this topic.
Your simplistic 'scenario' overlooks several IMPORTANT factors as well, such as severed radio and power cables -
- AGAIN, you appear TOTALLY unawares of previous B747 accidents INCLUDING one very well documented csae involving UAL Flt 811 WHICH incidently made it back damaged BUT with a large, gaping hole in the fuselage where a number of people were sucked out AS WAS luggage into engs 3 and 4 (FODDING them).
Come back SOMETIME in the future after you're better informed as to the facts on previous B747 'events' ... I don't make it a habit of discussing highly technical issues that entail a lot of detail involving complicated systems with the uninformed or idiots ...
Jim, Let's not resort to name calling. I am fully aware of the early history of 747 cargo doors coming unlatched in mid flight as the cargo bay pressurized.
My point remains, that you conveniently refused to address, is that you quoted an eyewitness who watched "landing lights" for between 2 and 5 minutes, and later theorized that instead of lights they were burning engines. I stated that it is nearly impossible for the aircrew to have two engines on fire for that length of time and not have radioed an in flight emergency.
I never addressed your theory of the cargo bay door fodding the engines, but since you bring it up... Perhaps you are aware that they found TWA800's cargo bay door. Here is the exact quote from the FAA final report on page 116 (page 134 of the PDF file):
1.16.4.4 Metallurgical Examination of the Forward Cargo DoorThe Safety Board also considered the possibility that the forward cargo door (the forward edge of which is located several feet aft of STA 520 on the lower right side of the fuselage) separated from the accident airplane in flight and that this separation initiated the breakup sequence. The Board examined the pieces of the forward cargo door, which were recovered from the yellow zone. All eight of the latching cams at the bottom of the door were recovered attached to pieces of the lower end of the door and were in the latched position. Additionally, the latching cams and pieces of the cargo door remained attached to the pins along the lower door sill. The hinge at the top of the door was broken into several pieces, but the hinge pin still held the various pieces of the hinge together. There was no evidence to suggest that this hinge separated. The forward cargo door exhibited severe crushing deformation and fragmentation, very similar to damage observed on the adjacent fuselage structure.
Your simplistic 'scenario' overlooks several IMPORTANT factors as well, such as severed radio and power cables -
Perhaps you are also aware that the cockpit voice recorder (CVR for really hip technical people like you) was recovered, and there were no "OH MY GOD THE CARGO BAY DOOR BLEW OFF" or "OH MY GOD, ENGINES 3 AND 4 ARE ON FIRE" sounds recovered from it. You are also aware that the time of power loss and time of explosion were coincident, so there is still that sticky 2 to 5 minutes of "landing lights are burning engines" to deal with.
Am I better informed yet?
Whoops! One additional nugget from the FAA final report:
1.12.4 EnginesThe four engines were found in the green zone separated from the wings. The No. 1 engine had crushing damage along the bottom of the nacelle and the low-pressure compressor (LPC), high-pressure compressor (HPC), and diffuser cases; the No. 2 engine had crushing damage along the right side of the nacelle and the LPC, HPC, and diffuser cases; the No. 3 engine inlet and fan blades were crushed rearward, and the LPC and HPC cases had crushing damage from the front and along the bottom; and the No. 4 engine inlet was crushed rearward, the LPC and HPC cases were crushed axially from the front and inward from the right side, and the diffuser case was crushed along the right side. All of the fan cases and cowls were separated from their respective engines. All engine thrust reversers were also separated from their respective engines; however, examination of the recovered thrust reverser actuators showed that the drive mechanisms were at the head end of the jackscrew, consistent with a thrust reverser stowed position at the time of impact.
The Safety Board's disassembly and examination of the four engines revealed LPC damage consistent with a minimal amount of low-pressure rotor rotation (if any) at the time of impact and HPC damage consistent with some high-pressure rotor rotation at the time of impact. No evidence of uncontainment, case rupture, fire, penetration of an object from outside into the engine, or preimpact damage was found in any of the engines.
Darn, no forward cargo door latch damage, and no engine FOD! Looks like your theory is 0 for 2. So sorry.
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