Posted on 06/18/2003 3:25:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN
In a recent article for First Things, Maureen L. Condic, PhD, Assistant professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, presents a convincing argument for meaning of the death protocol (used when organ harvesting is anticipated) to also be used when contemplating prenatal life. She has stated accurately that, “… the loss of integrated bodily function, not the loss of higher mental ability, is the defining legal characteristic of death.”
...
To paraphrase Dr. Condic’s assertion: to be alive as an ORGANISM, the organism is functioning as an integrated whole, rather than life being defined solely from an organ, a form within the organism. …
In order to accurately apply the meaning of the death protocol offered in Dr. Condic’s article, we will have to show how an embryo is more than a mere collection of cells. We will have to show how the embryo is in fact a functioning, integrated whole human organism. If the embryo can be defined on this basis, the definition of an alive, individual human being would fit, and the human being should be protected from exploitation and euthanasia.
What is the focus of the transition from embryo age to fetal age are the organs of the fetus. It is generally held that the organs are all in place when the individual life is redefined as a fetus. The gestational process during the fetal age is a process of the already constructed organs growing larger and more functional for survival. But during the fetal age, the not yet fully functional organs are not the sole sustainer of the individual life. The placenta is still drawing nourishment from the woman’s body and protecting the individual from being rejected as foreign tissue. If we are to apply the notion of a functioning integrated whole to define individual aliveness, the organs necessary for survival must all be included. Since the primitive brain stem and other organs such as primitive lungs, to be relied upon at a later age in the individual’s lifetime, are not yet fully functional, some other organ will have to be responsible for the functioning whole.
I have. The first fits an embryo to a tee.
The second one is the one you seem to harp on. You seem to think if a living thing does not have organs it is not an organism. Very strange and actually ludicrous thinking. And completely irrelevant to your argument.
That means that an embryo is either a parasite or that the mother is part of the embryo or the embryo is part of the mother, there is no other possibility.
No.
I have heard this before as well. It reflects a type of logic, but really is absolutely ignorant and contradictory to the most basic tenets of biology.
No.
And no one claims a sperm or unfertiized egg is an organism.
You really do not know anything about biology do you?
That's right. There is no such thing as a "right to have," or a right that makes a claim on anyone else's life. Rights pertain only to choice. There is only a right to do, and then, only if what you do does not threaten or use force against any other individual.
You and I have a right to help as many of these people as we choose. Neither they, nor anyone else has a right to demand it of anyone.
Hank
See #143. It refutes your assertion.
It doesn't!
Just out of curiosity, do you think birth has any purpose at all? If the uborn are babies before they are born, why do they need to be born?
Hank
If you're looking for the spiritual definition of human person, I'll defer to soemone else to address that for you ... people don't like my answers/opinions on spirit; I suppose that's why XBob continues to ignore the many invitations to address that instead of the human soul.
Yet, I must ask you about your position here. As a thought experiment, assume that it is 1954. Am I to understand your position to mean (assuming the technology had been available in 1954) that you would approve of me having being taken from my home; starved to death, or killed by oxygen starvation, and my cells then be used for some scientific experiment?
Even now, at my young 48 years of age, according to your principle of curing diseases, how long would I be "viable" outside my mother's womb without nutrition and hydration? By what principle of morality could I be kidnapped and killed by deprivation of essentials such as food or oxygen, and the predictible result be justified by the fact that I "was not viable anyway", and that my death will benefit mankind?
Cordially,
So I guess dogs, cats, birds, fish are all human because they breathe on their own.
You're not the brightest one, are you Einstein?
Imbecile.
My Pekingese has a better understanding of logic than you do.
I never said if it's breathing, it's human, now did I?
Do they let you use a keyboard or do you have a graphics tablet and crayon?
So9
Is life created by human conception or by God?
If life is eternal don't we exist before as well as after human conception, development and death?
If enough people believe birth control is murder should that be put into law? (This is not asking whether YOU believe this particular means of terminating potential human life is murder - it relates to government control of reproductive matters)
Do you think that we have all the information there is about the process of conception, birth and human development?
If it becomes possible to remove and preserve a zygote or a fetus for possible later transplant to another mother to carry to term, how would you feel about that process?
Do you want the government to decide reproductive matters for a family when the potential death of the mother is involved?
i think most abortion supporters privately agree with you.
all arguments about what defines "life" are merely tactical. when it comes down to it, they feel the host woman has a right to withdraw life support from the unborn, just as someone might withdraw life support from an elderly relative for no other reason than wanting to be free of the obligation to care for them.
i'm not saying i agree with them, but perhaps someone here can tell me how those two situations differ, apart from the future life expectancy of the dependent life.
not likely, thank God.
Is life created by human conception or by God? Life in the broadest sense is a creation from God, and specifically, the life of every individual living thing on earth has its origin in God. The life force (I call that the soul) is species specific so that a rabbit has a rabbit soul and a bird has a bird soul, etc. The ability of the rabbit organism's chemical and other spacetime limited makeup determines whether the rabbit soul fits the rabbit organism sufficiently to allow a lifetime. [This is deep stuff, hard too!]
If life is eternal don't we exist before as well as after human conception, development and death? Before and after are terms relative to temporal reality. If something has origin in a non-temporal reality and returns to that non-temporal reality, it is somewhat meaningless to speak of beginning or end for the thing not originating in the non-temporal realm. Perhaps that is a definition for type(s) of infinity ... a much more adept math person could shed some light on this.
If enough people believe birth control is murder should that be put into law? (This is not asking whether YOU believe this particular means of terminating potential human life is murder - it relates to government control of reproductive matters) Wow, again! ... The process whereby a notion is written into law at the state level would reflect the majority opinion in that state, hopefully. I don't like the notion of a federal law written to override the states' rights in this regard, but if the science shows a type of birth control (like partial birth abortion) is infanticide, a federal ban is in order given the corruption of our states' rights via the fiat rulings by the SCOTUS. I couldn't address all birth control because there are many categories and some are abortifacient while others are not. [I had a vasectomy deacdes ago, for instance. That is a form of birth control. Perhaps if we narrowed it to contraceptives, I could be more specific and say that contraception is an issue of bodily sovereignty ... I believe no government has the right to disallow a woman OR MAN the option to NOT conceive. How absurd would it be to declare all Catholic Priests must conceive a child, or at least try to? That's illustrative of the 'body sovereignty' notion.]
Do you think that we have all the information there is about the process of conception, birth and human development? No, and I would strongly recommend we research the methods/processes using other higher mammals, rather than early aged individual human beings.
If it becomes possible to remove and preserve a zygote or a fetus for possible later transplant to another mother to carry to term, how would you feel about that process? There is already a program called 'Snoflake Adoption' whereby embryonic individual lives brought into existence via in vitro fertilization yet stored in freezers are adopted for implantation into other women ... by the consent of the parents of the embryonic individuals and the women into whom they are to be implanted. Someday, it will be possible to do what you've noted, but I suspect that even before that day, science will devise an artificail chamber in which to gestate an in vitro fertilized emrbyonic individual tot he 40 week term. it is well under research in Japan and elsewhere already, for use with prized horses and cattle.
Do you want the government to decide reproductive matters for a family when the potential death of the mother is involved? The concept of self defense makes it plain in our society that a woman should have the right to have a pregnancy terminated if it does what you inply. She should not have to go first to the government to obtain permission to save her own life. But that termination should in no way be construed to mean someone has a right to a dead child (the other individual) simply because the woman who is/was giving life support had to end her task.
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