Posted on 06/17/2003 5:27:26 PM PDT by HatSteel
Kyla Ford and Eryn Robinson, both 7 and of Anderson Township, hold a sign in support of Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken at Lakeside Presbyterian Church Monday.
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FORT MITCHELL - The Rev. Stephen Van Kuiken was formally renounced by the Presbytery of Cincinnati on Monday for continuing to perform same-sex marriages.
The action, taken by a voting body made up of minister members and elder commissioners in the Presbytery, means the pastor of the Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church can no longer serve as a minister and loses his church membership.
The vote was 119-45, with four voters abstaining.
"I'm sad, and I'm disappointed," Van Kuiken said after the vote. "This is a sad day. This is an issue that is going to continue to stay at the surface of the Presbyterian Church."
Van Kuiken was unsure of his next action. He said he will take some time to re-evaluate what he will do. He is considering filing a complaint with the Synod of the Presbyterian Church USA, claiming his due process rights were violated because he had an appeal pending on an earlier rebuke.
"It's important for me to be true to myself and be true to what my beliefs are about God," he said.
Van Kuiken's case has been closely watched across the country as Presbyterians - who also ban gay clergy - and other faiths continue to debate the roles of gays and lesbians in the church.
In the denomination's first ecclesiastical trial on the issue, Van Kuiken was found guilty in April of marrying gays and lesbians. He was given a public rebuke and told not to do it again. He wed two women on May 17.
The voting body met at the Lakeside Presbyterian Church in Fort Mitchell after a vigil supporting Van Kuiken.
"I just think it was unavoidable," said Howard Smith, one of the voters in favor of the renunciation. "His actions made the action necessary by the Presbytery unless they want to totally disregard the (church) constitution."
A number of members of Mount Auburn Presbyterian attended Monday's vote and the vigil.
"I think it's a travesty what they're doing," said Terrell Lackey. "Being a gay man and a black man, too, I can't believe the world is still the way it is. Cincinnati is sad."
About one-third of the 280 members of the Mount Auburn church are gay.
This is the first time the Presbytery of Cincinnati has removed a minister for performing same-sex marriages, and possibly the first case in any Presbytery nationwide.
Presbyteries don't have to report such cases to the Presbyterian Church USA, but the organization isn't aware of others, said Laurie Griffith, manager of judicial process and social witness at the Presbyterian Church USA in Louisville.
Van Kuiken's rebuke in April was the lightest of possible punishments.
He also faces accusations, including blasphemy, from a California lawyer who filed the original complaints against him.
Van Kuiken could become a church member again, but he would have to restart the process if he wants to be a minister again, said the Rev. Melissa Bane Sevier, Presbytery moderator.
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E-mail auhde@enquirer.com
I also gave Scriptural as well as experiential support of my position, but you don't agree. So be it.
All I know, is that I am doing what God has called me to do, and it doesn't matter one whit if you like it, or agree.
I answer to God alone.....not to strangers on a political forum.
btw, read Esther again with an open mind......I mean without the goal of defending your set-in-concrete opinion. You might just learn something.
Maybe you weren't TRYING to make the parallel......I'm not sure why, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.....but it sure LOOKS like that's what you were doing.
Read it again.
Note that Paul says "in ALL the congregations". Of course, women were not allowed to hold leadership positions so there was no need for them to speak. They were to follow the example of Mary of Mary&Martha fame. Now, you read this and you seem to conclude that Paul was only speaking to the church in Corinth although there is no evidence that he limited it to that church alone. As a matter of fact, he seems to be explicitly speaking of all churches. So my question is : What Scriptural evidence do you have to refute Paul's admonition? Note: I'm not telling you to keep quiet in church. I'm asking why you draw the conclusion that you draw. Why do you believe what you believe?
In the olden days, people thought they were Saved by their piousness, despite Scripture to the contrary. If people had bothered to read and study Scripture instead of blindly follwing tradition, they would have seen they were wrong. We have the same problem today. Instead of reading and studying Scripture, we just blindly follow traditions. When Scripture runs contrary to our beliefs, we chuck Scripture out the window.
Note: The literal interpretation for your "shall be put to death" is "surely they will die". Interesting.
Just in case you were lumping me in with others who don't hold the same beliefs, for the sake of your argument, as many are wont to do on this forum.
Of course the Bible doesn't say women should have "no say in religion," but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not women are to lead or teach men in church. And the Bible is very clear that women are not to teach or lead men in church:
(1) Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived... [1 Timothy 2:11-14]
(2) As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but be in submission, as the Lord also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church...
If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. [1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 37]
Do you believe that women should literally be 'silent' as the passage in Corinthians states.
The Scripture says that it is a disgrace for women to speak. Do you believe that literally?
I need to know that specifically for purposes of discussion.
Once again, that's what the Scripture says. I believe that a woman should be silent in church if she wants to follow Scripture. Perhaps you could cite some Scripture to the contrary and change my mind.
ALL of us base our interpretations of what Scripture says on our own positions at times, so it's good to go back to Scripture.....without our predisposed opinions, in as much as is possible.....and see what's really THERE, instead of what we THINK is there.
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