What if Hitler Had Invaded the United States in World War Two?

Ave Maria

[AveMaria]

This is a nightmare scenario targetted towards all of you World War Two history buffs.

About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC, honoring President Eisenhower in his army uniform. In a speech commemorating that occassion, Bob Dole asked the audience to consider what would have happened if Ike had failed in his crusade. Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA?

It certainly would not have been possible for Hitler to stage a successful naval invasion across the Atlantic to take the Eastern Seaboard, irrespective of whether or not America succeded in Europe. He simply did not have a Navy that was large enough for that task.

I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, assuming that they had succeeded in their mission to conquer the Soviet Union:

1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.

2. Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South (something similar to what their illegals are already doing). Given that many South Americans had pro-axis fascist feelings during the war, Brazil and Argentina could have send their own armies as well, to support the Mexicans. And, considering that Latin America continued to trade with Germany in the war years, Germany would have been able to move massive armaments and troops to South America, support an invasion from Mexico. As a reward, Mexico would have been rewarded with the return of California, New Mexico and Arizona. The rest of South America would have had a chance to be freed from American regional dominance that has existed since the Monroe Doctrine.

3. Hitler could have reached out to the anti-FDR right-wing, the likes of Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Rev. Charles Coughlin, and their many followers who were influential in the America First Movement. He could have used the resentment that Irish-Americans and German-Americans had for Anglo elites who wanted to save Britain, a nation that many in both groups disliked (I am Irish myself, and I am aware about how many Irishmen resented going to help Britain. The Republic of Ireland made a conscious decision to stay neutral in the war to the very end).

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

5. In the 1940s, Eugenics was highly favored by both liberal and conservative elites in New England. American race scientists like H. Goddard, Carl Bingham, Madison Grant, and Lothrop Stoddard were standard readings in the school system in Nazi Germany. A shared interest in race issues would have brought the Nazis and the New England Eugenicists together.

A combination of all those forces would have overwhelmed the FDR administration.

[Burkeman1]

Hitler was aware of the theoretical possibility of the atom bomb even before the war. He had his famous "heavy water" facility in Norway. But once that program was sabotaged he never came close to devolping a nuke and that was in 1940 or 41 I think!

[Burkeman1]

Given that large swaths of our military and officer corp were of Southern origin before the war and were the best troops of WWII I would say there was zero chance of any "Southern Heritage" propaganda by the Germans having any success in the South at all. That is a canard.

[Burkeman1]

Correct- It took the United States military almost two years to build the first "highway" from the US - through Canada- to Alaska buring WWII. And we didn't have to ship the stuff needed to get the job done 10,000 miles! By the way- this first road was built by mostly black troops from the South who put up with the cold, poor rations, poor housing, unequal treatment to their white counterparts, and swarms of bugs in the brief summers that could and did drive men insane.

[Eaker]

When it comes to invading the U.S. the ultimate problem isn't getting past the U.S. military, it's dealing with the 80 million snipers once you're there.

I got to about post 150 before I had other things to do.

You are, of course, correct!

Stay safe, stay armed, and never forget!

[clamper1797]

He would have got his ass kicked by the gun behind every blade of grass. BUT that was then ....

[Rytwyng]

the borders are still far too porous. But it certainly isn't the flood of Mexicans that many predicted Bush would open the dams for.

It ISN'T? Have you visited Southern California lately?

[Burkeman1]

The German General staff of the Wermacht never wanted to invade Russia. Germany didn't have anything approaching a total war economy in June of 1941. The invasion was a doomed ideological fantasy from the start. They didn't even have the food production necessary to sustain the 3 million man invasion force! Hitler had insanely ordered that the German forces would live "off the land" to a degree. Which meant pillaging and looting of Russian and Ukranian peasants- the natural ally of any invading force to Communist Russia since they were the most brutalized of the Soviet Regime! And despite all the German propaganda about it's mobile and modern Panzer Divisions- 3/4's of the German army WALKED into Russia with horse drawn baggage! If a sane German dictator who was not a twisted race hater had waged war against Russia it would indeed have been a German victory.

That being said- The German Armies in the east fought some incredible battles against overwhelming odds and to this day they are studied in American military schools for their brilliance. Even on retreat and after suffering tremondous losses the German army proved a tough foe for the Russians (and the Americans). Quite simply- the world has never seen a better army than the Wermacht in WWII.

[Rytwyng]

Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question. "You are right", he told the Americans. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. Even though your military was inferior to ours in 1941, we knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military style rifles and your schools had teams of marksmen that competed. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand."

Proof: Everyone who supports gun control is a traitor who deserves to be hanged.

[Burkeman1]

Does that include our troops know arresting and imprisoning Iraqis for gun ownership?

[Burkeman1]

I meant "now arresting". Sorry,

[rintense]

Southern Cali happened long before Bush was in office.

There is little chance of Bush granting amnesty, or congress passing it. Yeah, he should be held accountable for things that happen on his watch. And granted, he isn't as tight on the border as I'd like. But we all know who is the cause of the problems in S. Ca.- I can think of two names right now. And one of them isn't Bush.

[Rytwyng]

Gun control is an act of war. In Iraq, we are at war.

[Rytwyng]

It wasn't Stalin, it was Yamamoto: "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass."

[Burkeman1]

I don't know about that. The assassination attempts against Hitler by the German "Front of Decent People" started shortly after his invasion of Russia. They were never successful and for a variety of reasons. But a major reason after December 7th 1941 was that Roosevelt refused to even deal with these anti Hitler conspirators or to even allow their existence to be known in the press or among his own government! He wanted "unconditional surrender"! And even after Hitler was nearly killed in the summer of 1944 at his forward base in poland by the FODP and the conspirators had been rounded up and put on trial in Germany- Roosevelt propaganda leaflets over Germany condemned- not Hitler- but the conspirators as "Junker militerists" even worse than Hitler! And then thousands of American troops died fighting Germans who by our propaganda were spurred to fight on!

[Burkeman1]

Are we making the same mistake the British made in North America? Only a quarter of the population was for Independence in even Massachusetts. But when the British demanded that stores of ammo and guns be turned over a lot of colonialists said "huh?" They made enemies when they had none before!

I have read stories where a gun battle or gunfire goes on in Baghdad between honest Iraqis business and home owners and thugs- the thugs run away- the Americans show up and take the guns of the honest Iraqis! Do we want to get into this business?

[Burkeman1]

PS- we are at war. But not legally or through our constitution. That is how we have waged war since Korea. That doesn't make it right.

[Pelham]

Germany had almost no surface fleet. Crossing the Atlantic in force would have required convoys and surface ships.

Germany had no strategic air force. It's limited range planes lost the Battle of Britain in 1940, well before the US entered the war.

The logistics of supporting an invasion force increase in difficulty and vulnerability as supply lines lengthen. Germany might have retained control of mainland Europe if they hadn't turned on their Russian allies in 1941, but an invasion of the American mainland is fantasy.

[Pelham]

The American people are NOT like the french.

The French suffered over 140,000 casualties trying to stop the Wehrmacht. Like the Poles before them, the French got to meet the German army at full strength. Hitler managed to waste 100 of his veteran divisions in Russia before we entered the war.

[clockwork]

I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory that any one race is intellectually superior to another, but if I did I would put my money on Jacob's kids.

"necessarily" would appear to be the key word in this sentence...you and old Adolph have a lot in common...the two of you just appear to bet on different races. Theories of racial superiority are not very popular these days, but I guess its ok if its the jews that you put on top of the pile!