What if Hitler Had Invaded the United States in World War Two?

Ave Maria

[AveMaria]

This is a nightmare scenario targetted towards all of you World War Two history buffs.

About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC, honoring President Eisenhower in his army uniform. In a speech commemorating that occassion, Bob Dole asked the audience to consider what would have happened if Ike had failed in his crusade. Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA?

It certainly would not have been possible for Hitler to stage a successful naval invasion across the Atlantic to take the Eastern Seaboard, irrespective of whether or not America succeded in Europe. He simply did not have a Navy that was large enough for that task.

I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, assuming that they had succeeded in their mission to conquer the Soviet Union:

1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.

2. Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South (something similar to what their illegals are already doing). Given that many South Americans had pro-axis fascist feelings during the war, Brazil and Argentina could have send their own armies as well, to support the Mexicans. And, considering that Latin America continued to trade with Germany in the war years, Germany would have been able to move massive armaments and troops to South America, support an invasion from Mexico. As a reward, Mexico would have been rewarded with the return of California, New Mexico and Arizona. The rest of South America would have had a chance to be freed from American regional dominance that has existed since the Monroe Doctrine.

3. Hitler could have reached out to the anti-FDR right-wing, the likes of Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Rev. Charles Coughlin, and their many followers who were influential in the America First Movement. He could have used the resentment that Irish-Americans and German-Americans had for Anglo elites who wanted to save Britain, a nation that many in both groups disliked (I am Irish myself, and I am aware about how many Irishmen resented going to help Britain. The Republic of Ireland made a conscious decision to stay neutral in the war to the very end).

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

5. In the 1940s, Eugenics was highly favored by both liberal and conservative elites in New England. American race scientists like H. Goddard, Carl Bingham, Madison Grant, and Lothrop Stoddard were standard readings in the school system in Nazi Germany. A shared interest in race issues would have brought the Nazis and the New England Eugenicists together.

A combination of all those forces would have overwhelmed the FDR administration.

[GOP_1900AD]

Bump!

[Petronski]

The rocket scientists are another matter, but the braintrust at Los Alamos was overwhelmingly comprised of European refugees, mostly Jewish. Oppenheimer, Einstein, Szilard, Bohr, Fermi, Teller. Try making the Manhattan Project work as well without even one of them.

And by the way, before anyone has time to say this, I am assigning credit to these men. Not blame. Credit.

[xrp]

Keep in mind the limited power of rockets in WW2 compared to the size/weight of nuclear bombs. When were ICBMs introduced? Late 1950s or early 1960s, right? Hitler would have been 15 years away from an intercontinental delivery system. Plus, wasn't there a documentary on the History Channel recently about the German atomic project not really getting anywhere?

[montag813]

About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC

Eisenhower was a putz. His stupid politicking in the last year of the war led to massive uneccessary Allied casualties, as well as giving the Soviets a head start on most of what would become the Iron Curtain. If he had just have Monty the finger and let Patton finish the job, history would have been very very different. F**k Eisenhower. Marshall or Bradley would have done a better job in command. Reminds me of the loser armchair "General" Powell.

[DCBryan1]

Why did Japan not invade the West Coast? In 1960, Robert Menard was a Commander aboard the USS Constellation when he was part of a meeting between United States Navy personnel and their counterparts in the Japanese Defense Forces and recorded in the May issue of LIFE magazine.

Fifteen years had passed since VJ day, most of those at the meeting were WWII veterans, and men who had fought each other to the death at sea were now comrades in battle who could confide in one another.

Someone at the table asked a Japanese admiral why, with the Pacific Fleet devastated at Pearl Harbor and the mainland US forces in what Japan had to know was a pathetic state of unreadiness, Japan had not simply invaded the West Coast.

Commander Menard would never forget the crafty look on the Japanese commander's face as he frankly answered the question. "You are right", he told the Americans. "We did indeed know much about your preparedness. Even though your military was inferior to ours in 1941, we knew that probably every second home in your country contained firearms. We knew that your country actually had state championships for private citizens shooting military style rifles and your schools had teams of marksmen that competed. We were not fools to set foot in such quicksand."

[Petronski]

Some of these things were still on the drawing board in 1945, or barely into prototype phase. There were a lot of fantastic aircraft planned, but few or none were serious projects, beyond providing the psychic salve of a 'miracle weapon' that would keep the morale up.

[xrp]

Whatever the outcome of Fall BARBAROSSA, the sinking of the Bismarck in May of 1941 removed Germany's last major surface combatant.

Bismarck's sister ship, the Tirpitz, was sunk in 1944. Hitler was so shocked when Bismarck was effectively doomed by biplanes with torpedoes, he kept his surface combatants in the fjords of Norway. Ironically...long range British bombers nailed Tirpitz.

[shuckmaster]

Hitler could not even get across the English channel much less the Behring Strait.

That was the 1st thought to cross my mind.

[xrp]

I thought that was a high level Japanese military official after WW2. He was asked why, after the American Navy at Pearl Harbor was destroyed, did they not continue on to California, he responded to the effect of every 2nd or 3rd American citizen being armed.

[plusone]

The Nazi economy was bizarre, much like that of the Roman Emoire. It was based around slavery. It was the 'lesser people' of the conquered countries that became the expendable work force for Hitler. As long as they could take over new lands, they could replenish their work force, which constantly dwindled from horrid conditions, and the culling imposed by the SS freaks. Much like Rome, Germany could only survive thru expansion. But when they reached the limits of that ability (once enough countries joined in the battle against them), their workforce no longer continued to grow. That placed a limit on their industrial production. Also, unlike the US, which turned to car factoried to mass produce tanks, the Germans often delegated this impoortant task to companies that produced 'one-offs', like ship builders. These plants were not set up for mass production, so tank numbers were not as high as could have been.

[DCBryan1]

RE: See post 145 above.

[hawkeye101]

We also have the second ammendment to our constitution. Our right to bear arms has kept our civilians well armed and free to target-practice, hunt, and defend ourselves, our families, and our land. Every farm kid I knew here in Iowa knew how to work a rifle or shotgun back in the 1980's.

Also, America was a much more rural country back in the 1940's. People knew the land like the back of their hand, and would have defended it with tenacity and vigor never before seen by European armies of the 20th century.

[Tennessee_Bob]

I live in Oak Ridge - I'll have to go look for the book.

[spectre]

Excellent book I read a few years ago - "Heisenberg's War" about his and the German bomb effort.

In his debriefs he stated that even if they got past the experimental stage Germany did not have the engineering and materiel resources at that time (1943-44) to even begin fabricating a nuclear weapon.

[xrp]

The "Battle for America" would have been quite costly to America.

This is seriously doubtful. Delivery systems in WW2 were lightyears behind the accuracy we have today. If anything, a trans-Atlantic missile in the late 1940s would have been lucky to have landed within 10-20 miles of its actual target. Toss in the weight of 1st generation atomic weapons (10,000+ pounds) and the small area of effect for a Hiroshima type device and the amount of damage would be extremely minimal. Remember, America had a nuclear project going on since the late 1930s and by 1945, America had only developed 5 or less atomic bombs.

[Petronski]

Oppenheimer, Einstein, Szilard, Bohr, Fermi, Teller.

Hans Bethe too. Thank God they were on our side.

[Paleo Conservative]

Also, unlike the US, which turned to car factories to mass produce tanks, the Germans often delegated this impoortant task to companies that produced 'one-offs', like ship builders. These plants were not set up for mass production, so tank numbers were not as high as could have been.

Even our ship builders started adopting mass production techniques. The Kaiser ship yards revolutionized the process of ship building.

[Petronski]

"Heisenberg's War" about his and the German bomb effort.

I've seen it cited, I think I even saw a documentary based on it, but I've never read it. Thanks, I'm going to pick it up.

[plusone]

Thanks. 'Kaiser'? Ironic...

[ProudEagle]

Fortunately the heavy water plant was destroyed in a raid( British I think). I remember a great movie ( don't remember the name though) concerning it.

633 Squadron. Cliff Robertson played the lead. Loosely based on the Norwegian raids on the plants.