Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Cars' `Black Boxes' Hold Crash Data, New Privacy Issues [manslaughter conviction on black box data]
Newhouse News Service ^ | June 10, 2003

Posted on 06/16/2003 9:07:08 AM PDT by John Jorsett

When Edwin Matos killed the girls, he didn't know his car would become a witness for the prosecution.

Like millions of Americans, Matos had no idea his car contained an electronic device recording what he did just before the crash, but it was information that would help send him to prison.

Matos was driving the 2002 Pontiac Trans Am in a 30 mph zone of a suburb near Fort Lauderdale, Fla., when the car driven by a teenage girl pulled out of a driveway into his path.

The driver and her friend died instantly.

Defense lawyer Robert Stanziale said Matos was going about 60 mph. Assistant State Prosecutor Michael Horowitz said that his accident investigator calculated Matos was traveling about 98 mph. The electronic data recorder in Matos' car showed his peak speed was 114 mph in the seconds before the crash.

Last month, the information from the EDR helped convict Matos of two counts of manslaughter and two counts of vehicular homicide.

Matos, 47, is scheduled to be sentenced this Friday. He faces a minimum of 22 years and a maximum of 30 years in prison.

While most people are familiar with the black boxes in aircraft, which also serve as event data recorders, few motorists know there are similar devices in their vehicles as part of the system that controls air bags. Only 36 percent of the 38,000 people surveyed by the Insurance Research Council were aware of EDRs.

But at least 10 million vehicles have them, estimated Philip W. Haseltine, president of the Automotive Coalition for Traffic Safety, a lobbying group in Arlington, Va.

The most sophisticated EDRs collect pre-crash information including the speed of the vehicle, whether the driver was accelerating or braking and whether the seat belts were buckled.

The collection of such information has excited a wide range of groups for different reasons, and EDRs have the potential to become one of the more controversial issues in the auto industry.

Safety researchers see EDRs as an excellent way to get more detailed information about real-world crashes so they can see how to improve safety.

Insurance companies see EDRs as a way to determine who is at fault in an accident and whether seat belts were used. One day they could also allow an insurance company to know who is naughty and nice in everyday driving.

The courts see EDRs as an new tool to determine the guilt or innocence of people involved in serious, criminal accidents.

Privacy groups see EDRs as electronic snoops and a threat to privacy. Consumers Union, the nonprofit group that publishes Consumer Reports, says "there are significant potential dangers" to motorists' privacy.

The prime role of EDRs has been to control air bags and to record information about how well they worked during a crash. General Motors Corp. took the lead in collecting more information.

Starting with the 1999 model year, all GM vehicles had EDRs programmed to record about five seconds of pre-crash information. That included whether the driver was accelerating or braking and the speed of the vehicle, according to a study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

The idea was to learn more about how to improve crash performance. After selected, serious crashes, GM would collect the information with the permission of the owner of the vehicle, said Jim Schell, a GM spokesman.

GM routinely shared that information with the highway traffic safety administration.

While all vehicles with air bags use EDRs, other automakers have not been as quick to increase the amount of information recorded. Some are worried that consumers may resent having such personal information collected and they're waiting to see what happens to GM, Haseltine said.

Those include Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Corp., where company officials say they generally have limited capability on their EDR systems.

"We don't want our vehicle owners thinking that their manufacturer is conspiring against them," said Rick Ruth, Ford's manager of design analysis.

So far, GM doesn't appear to have suffered any public backlash, said Haseltine, whose group is funded by major automakers. But he acknowledges that could be because relatively few people know about the devices and how they could be used.

During the Florida case, the accuracy of the EDR was challenged by Matos' lawyer, Stanziale, in several areas.

He argued that it was new technology and that it had not been accepted or proven. The judge dismissed that argument in the face of various studies by groups including NHTSA.

Stanziale also argued that Matos had modified his Trans Am, changing the size of the tires and even the engine's software to make it faster. That, he said, would have caused the EDR to make wrong calculations.

Horowitz said there was no proof the changes affected the EDR.

Horowitz contends the EDR played an important role in convincing the jury because it was part of the car's safety equipment and was simply recording the information. "It is not for the prosecution or defense," he said.

The devices can provide important information ranging from the force of the impact to how the air bag deployed. That all helps investigators to understand "the nuances of a crash," said Sean Kane, a partner in Strategic Safety, a safety research firm based in Alexandria, Va.

But for the complete crash picture, EDR information must be considered along with other crash investigation techniques, Kane said.

Generally, EDRs have been found to be accurate, but not perfect, according to studies by groups like NHTSA and its Canadian counterpart, Transport Canada.

There is a need to use caution, warned one Transport Canada study. "It is evident that, in certain situations, the stored data may not correspond to the actual situation in the vehicle."

Automakers say the information collected by EDRs belongs to the owner or the person who leased the vehicle and they will not download it without permission. But that doesn't mean others can't get it.

In the Matos case, a judge issued a search warrant allowing the prosecution to harvest the information.

Criminal court cases involving EDRs have been rare, but industry observers expect them more often as the number of vehicles with EDRs increases.

That may make many people unhappy. Fewer than half of the 38,000 surveyed by the Insurance Research Council favored the use of EDRs to investigate accidents and determine fault.

But the insurance industry maintains EDRs are a good idea because the information can help determine what really happened, said Sean McManamy, a spokesman for the American Insurance Association, a lobbying group.

Consumers Union has warned the NHTSA that without regulations to limit the disclosure of such information, there is the potential for abuse, such as insurance companies requiring consumers to have EDRs and make the information available as a condition for providing insurance.

Such electronic devices also raise the possibility of routine monitoring of how customers drive.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-79 last
To: discostu
I agree - this is an invaluable tool. It creeps me out but so far I've only seen it help nail creeps like this. As another poster said - when they start 'fishing' ala 'plugging into it' during a traffic stop to either check their radar gun or to see if their radar gun missed something.
61 posted on 06/16/2003 12:22:45 PM PDT by Frapster (John 3:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ContemptofCourt
Many thanks for the info.
62 posted on 06/16/2003 12:39:14 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: DoozerDude
Interesting tidbit.
63 posted on 06/16/2003 12:41:59 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: John Jorsett
That sinks it.....Its time for the '53 chevy truck to come out of storage.......
64 posted on 06/16/2003 12:56:50 PM PDT by lmailbvmbipfwedu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Farnham
"If you had ever been lied ABOUT, either by the cops (there ARE bad cops, and they DO have "quotas") or by some punk rich kid and the lawyer that daddy bought him, you might think that a provably impartial witness is not such a bad thing."

I'm not saying an impartial witness is a bad thing! (And I know cops lie; you can tell they are lying if their lips are moving.) (Ha Ha) I'm just arguing for some sort of consumer 'right to know' that there is a monitoring device in your car. Maybe people would drive better if they knew!


65 posted on 06/16/2003 1:13:09 PM PDT by Henrietta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"You are the one flinging about the notion that the 4th Amendment is dead and the police can come into my home any time they damn well please."

Well, they can, Dan, so get used to it. All they have to do is allege that you are involved in some sort of "terrorist" activity, and they can basically do whatever they want to you and your property, including hold you without charges for an indetermined amount of time.

You can believe that this act will never be used against the average Joe, and I hope you are right. Just remember: The government promised us that a social security number would not to be used for identification. Did they keep this promise? If not, why do you believe the same tripe they are trotting out surrounding the Patriot Act?
66 posted on 06/16/2003 1:17:36 PM PDT by Henrietta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Henrietta
Well, they can, Dan, so get used to it. All they have to do is allege that you are involved in some sort of "terrorist" activity, and they can basically do whatever they want to you and your property, including hold you without charges for an indetermined amount of time.

Really? I find that strange, "Henry," since I pore over the news during nearly every waking hour and cannot recall one instance of this happening to an innocent victim. If I'm wrong about this, please educate me. Contrary to the way you post to me, I *do* have an open mind and have been persuaded to change my point of view when *facts* and not *emotions* have been presented.

The government promised us that a social security number would not to be used for identification. Did they keep this promise? If not, why do you believe the same tripe they are trotting out surrounding the Patriot Act?

I agree with you (see?) wholeheartedly on that one. What keeps me clinging to the notion that perhaps the same will not happen with the Patriot Act is that we are currently under a Republican administration. We became slaves to government during each and every one of the dim-witted democratic administrations - More Government, Big Government. And, we have just come off of 8 years of lies and deceit.

I am trying to have faith that the current administration is more forthright. Laugh at that if you will, but that's where I'm at right now.

67 posted on 06/16/2003 1:28:24 PM PDT by dansangel (America - love it, support it or LEAVE it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"What keeps me clinging to the notion that perhaps the same will not happen with the Patriot Act is that we are currently under a Republican administration. "

Wow, you really are an optimist. I think that we have lost more freedoms under this current adminstration than under any previous administration (with the possible exception of FDR's). And the sad thing is, we're permitting it, thinking that Republicans can do no wrong.

What do you think that Hillary would do with the Patriot Act powers, were she to be elected?

And Dan, read the news; there are people being held right now under the Patriot Act; I'll try to find some sources for your perusal. There are probably some here on FR.
68 posted on 06/16/2003 1:38:34 PM PDT by Henrietta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | View Replies]

To: Henrietta
You might be interested in these articles: http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/1441

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15770

Part of the scary thing about this Act is that it creates a broad new crime of "domestic terrorism" which is defined in Section 802 as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the US or of any state; (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

Under the broad definition under part A, reckless driving could implicate the Patriot Act, and you could be held without charges for up to seven days and have your house searched without your knowledge.

This is not the kind of society in which I wish to live.
69 posted on 06/16/2003 2:09:29 PM PDT by Henrietta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Henrietta
Wow, you really are an optimist.

Oh gee, I guess I lost more credibility points with you.

What do you think that Hillary would do with the Patriot Act powers, were she to be elected?

She's not and she won't be. Unless we "conservatives" continue to be divided. You can let go of the notion we'll ever have a Libertarian president, Henry. It's time we united as conservatives to keep the hounds at bay!

And Dan, read the news; there are people being held right now under the Patriot Act; I'll try to find some sources for your perusal. There are probably some here on FR.

Yes, there are people being held now. I know that. They exhibited terorist leanings, came from terrorist backgrounds and conspired to perform terrorist acts. I asked if there was an innocent US citizen who has no contact with Islamist terrorists who is being held.

Please don't talk down to me. I *do* read the news. I wouldn't be on FR if I wasn't reasonably well-informed. I'd prefer to have a discussion with someone who is calm and reasonable than someone who yells "fire" in a crowded theater and then does not back up that observation with fact.

70 posted on 06/16/2003 2:18:59 PM PDT by dansangel (America - love it, support it or LEAVE it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Henrietta
The Hacker Quarterly? You expect me to hold a story as credible from that? Sorry, you might as well have sent me to the Enquirer. This discussion is over.
71 posted on 06/16/2003 2:23:30 PM PDT by dansangel (America - love it, support it or LEAVE it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"This discussion is over."

Thank goodness! I've had quite enough of listening to your blather about how we should all trust our all-knowing government.

Buh-bye, little sheep.
72 posted on 06/16/2003 2:30:46 PM PDT by Henrietta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Arthalion
"The Autobahn system would never work here without spending billions to upgrade our roads"

Having driven on both (avoiding the worst of east coast freeze-thaw freeways), I would say that the engineering standards and drivability at speed is virtually identical. Most people are surprised on their first autobahn drive to see that these are just regular-looking limited access highways.

The dirty little secret is that our freeways were designed for essentially the same speeds.
73 posted on 06/16/2003 3:11:07 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"And forget about bandying about the Patriot Act. That was designed to protect us from terrorist crimes, not hassle the average joe blow citizen."

There is an immportant difference between what a law is "designed" to do, and what it actually authorizes.

The road to hell...

74 posted on 06/16/2003 3:12:28 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Beelzebubba
I've heard the same thing from highway cops, most of our highway system is designed for speeds of around 100 MPH, even higher out west where it's dead straight for miles on end.
75 posted on 06/16/2003 3:13:18 PM PDT by discostu (If he really thinks we're the devil, then lets send him to hell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"She's not and she won't be. Unless we "conservatives" continue to be divided."

When the principled conservatives fail to support the RINOs and Bushbots, the terrorists (or Hillary) will win!?
76 posted on 06/16/2003 3:15:09 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
"The Hacker Quarterly? You expect me to hold a story as credible from that? Sorry, you might as well have sent me to the Enquirer. This discussion is over."

You are whining and ducking because of the source quoting an enacted federal law?! If you dispute it, prove it by telling us where the article misquoted the federal law.


77 posted on 06/16/2003 3:16:40 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Beelzebubba
You are whining and ducking because of the source quoting an enacted federal law?! If you dispute it, prove it by telling us where the article misquoted the federal law.

I am doing what? I am merely stating that the news source holds no credibility. Remember the NYT? Made up stories? The "victim" can't even prove he was in the police station. Ever been the victim of a hacker? I have. "Hacker's Quarterly" by virtue of its name holds zero credibility with me.

Save your personal attacks for someone who deserves them. I prefer to have rational discussions with intelligent and informed FReepers - not trolls who look for people to attack. Buh-bye to you, too.

78 posted on 06/16/2003 4:22:07 PM PDT by dansangel (America - love it, support it or LEAVE it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: dansangel
So what ARE you disputing?
79 posted on 06/16/2003 7:54:47 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-79 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson