Middle class faces extinction

The News-Press ^ | June 15, 2003 | JANE R. JOHNSON, N. Fort Myers

[Willie Green]

The worst thing that the politicians have done to this country was to sign NAFTA. The Republicans and Democrats are both to blame. The companies in this country said that unless they went overseas for cheaper labor costs, their companies would not survive. At first, I thought if they only sold to the people overseas, it would be all right. So the companies erected plants overseas but then they started closing their plants in America. Now they manufacture overseas and export to America and we have to import the products to be sold here. No wonder our imports are higher than our exports.

[Princeliberty]

How does NAFTA save jobs, nothing you said addressed
the question of NAFTA. Your arguments are sound
as to putting a government set minumum wage.
But not as NAFTA and more importantly trade with China.

With China we are losing our Manufacturing and even
High Tech jobs do to competition with slave labor
and government subsidized exports.
Adam Smith was talking about Freed Trade between
nations like England and France not about
allowing whole industries to be lost to slave
labor nations.
That kind of trade destroys the very Rule of Law
needed to maintain a free market.

[FITZ]

That's all very well and good. But what about the rest of us "poor" slobs?

Even in a third world country it could be feasible ---but very rare for a working person to get somewhere through their hard work --- a few probably can ---but that's not the point. We need a society where the masses ---not the exceptions can be fairly self-reliant and have access to capital --which they first get through work.

[FITZ]

But you do have that class of "rich" folk who donate with an eye for personal benefit....

And we have that class of "rich" folk like the Kennedys who donate more of the middle class's money so they get personal benefit of the poor electing them. I very much doubt the Kennedys would build a school or library ---not out of their own money.

[Dec31,1999]

Actually, I agree. We need to find a maket-based solution to skyrocketing "heath insurance" premiums before the Dems do. Mark my words.

I would begin with federal and state mandates.

The problem is in state and federal health insurance laws. It is necessary to eliminate them all to open the marketplace.

It is necessary to eliminate state and federal licensing to practice medicine. It is necessary to cap juristic judgements on malpractice.

[Dec31,1999]

Even in a third world country it could be feasible ---but very rare for a working person to get somewhere through their hard work --- a few probably can ---but that's not the point. We need a society where the masses ---not the exceptions can be fairly self-reliant and have access to capital --which they first get through work.

Very true, but the County Club Republicans and the Limousine Liberals do not see it your way.

[discostu]

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard some dipstick claim the middle class is disappearing I wouldn't be in the middle class anymore.

This line has been paranoid idiocy for 40 years, it's a fallback column for doomcriers that can't think of anything else this month.

[FITZ]

We're still talking about wealth that was produced in a middle class country. Once it's not --all that venture captital moves elsewhere. Much of our wealth class got wealthy from working hard, moving up through the middle class and they became the venture capitalists. Once we give up the middle class and have the aristocrat or elite class and the poor class all that goes away.

[Dec31,1999]

Most "middle class" folks are going to vote for lesser health care for "free", rather than $1,000 dollars per month of the best care. It's just how things work, so the Repubs may want to find a free market solution to this problem, before it arises and takes back all of their recent gains. Just a word of warning.

Dearest stupid party: Don't say you weren't warned. It's coming.

[FITZ]

I know people who got small business loans, and also people who started their business without loans. Look at the guy who started Domino Pizza for example --- many of the big businesses we see today were started small ----they did not have vast amounts of money handed to them. Henry Ford did not have venture capitalists handing him money either ---he was once a small business owner that did well selling cars to a middle class society.

[FITZ]

If you notice ---the argument on this thread isn't about it going away or not ---many people think the middle class isn't needed at all. They're fine with having no middle class, they believe the venture capitalists can just keep things going.

[tortoise]

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard some dipstick claim the middle class is disappearing I wouldn't be in the middle class anymore.

Yeah, I wonder about those figures. Does that mean that the European "middle-class" lives in poverty? In many of the major economies of Europe, the average person makes $8-10k less than the average American. I think it is much ado about nothing. As long as the inflation adjusted average increases (no matter how slowly), we're doing okay and a hell of a lot better than most other industrialized nations.

[FITZ]

and a hell of a lot better than most other industrialized nations.

Industrialized??? A lot of people would say being industrialized is not important at all ----industrialization led us to being a middle class wealthy nation.

[EverOnward]

"By the way, I guess you forgot the rich like Andrew Carnegie, who gave millions of dollars away to build libraries and colleges to educate the poor and the middle class."

Andrew Carnegie build libraries and colleges to wash the blood off his hands and so that people like you would have us believe he was a decent man. You obviously have no ancestors who worked in his steel mills. My husband is from Pittsburgh -- so the lies about Carnegie won't wash here.

[KCmark]

I'm in agreement that we are seeing a development of the two-class system. It is not economically healthy. Instead of trying to kill the unions here, I think we need to export the idea. It would help raise the work environment standards in third world countries and would make it where companies produced their products in the country that consumed them since labor costs would be more equitable. The world is strongest with a strong middle class and unions help achieve that. IMHO.

I should say I am pro-Union and pro-Non-Union. I think the system is strongest with both.

[discostu]

If the middle class "disappears" (which isn't going to happen) by moving up then everything will be fine. The importance of the middle class in the economy is that it's the lowest strata that spends money in a way that spurs economic growth. So long as they get replaced by good spenders they're expendable. Luckily the entire concept of a disappearing middle class is a statistical fiction, it's not happening, it's just people proving once again that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[liberallarry]

I don't see how a global economy can be stopped. The last real attempt to do so pretty much caused the Great Depression.

The transition is going to cause a lot of pain - particularly to the American middle and lower classes. They're going to see their life-style degraded and income slashed while workers in other countries benefit. Those with capital will do what they always do - invest it wherever and whenever they think they can preserve or increase it.

What worries me is that the Luddites may ultimately be proven right. Fewer and fewer people - especially uneducated and unskilled people - are needed to produce goods and provide services.

[discostu]

Got it in one.

[Dec31,1999]

It was the unions that made the middle class.

I can't believe I said that, but it's true.

[Dec31,1999]

If you want to see pure Capitalism at work, one only needs to look south of the border. Shanty towns, misery. That's what it looks like.

Never forget!

[discostu]

Of course Mexico had a socialist government for 80 years. Nothing there is an example of pure capitalism. The closest you'll ever get to an example of pure capitalism at work is America.