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I'm working on an article to organize some thoughts on a new approach (grounded in math/physics) to the subject of biological evolution.

I would greatly appreciate your critiques, comments, additional or preferred sources, etc.

Thank you!

1 posted on 06/15/2003 10:36:08 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; Phaedrus; logos; unspun; tortoise; js1138; cornelis; gore3000; ALS; PatrickHenry; ...
I'd greatly appreciate your input and/or your pinging anyone else you think might have input! Hugs!
2 posted on 06/15/2003 10:39:07 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I'm sorry, Alamo-Girl, but I don't have the time to wade through everything here! From what I glean, you seem to believe in special creation, which I utterly adhere to.

Personally, I believe that evolution is blasphemous nonsense. The beginning is in Genesis 1. God once described Himself as "I am that I am" and He is the "Beginning and the Ending". Since He is the "Beginning" we don't need to try to figure out when the universe started. I did a tremendous amount of study on evolution in high school, and I reject the theory of evolution in its entirety, whether or not so-called scientists try to combine theological elements with it or not.

Am I correct in assuming that you believe the same thing?
4 posted on 06/15/2003 10:48:52 AM PDT by No Dems 2004
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To: Alamo-Girl
This is really a placmarker, because I haven't tead it all. A couple of quick comments, not necessarily directed at you.

There is a tendency in FR threads for some to reason from the necessary existence of God, directly to the existence of the Christian God, complete with whatever attributes some particular church or demonination ascribes to God.

Second, it is quite reasonable to hypothesise that God exists only through the existence of the universe; that is, God cnnot be said to have attributes except those those that manifest themselves through existence. I used to think this was called Deism, but correct me if I'm wrong about this.

9 posted on 06/15/2003 11:06:00 AM PDT by js1138
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To: Alamo-Girl
According to Sir Karl Popper, when given two theories an experiment will decide one true and one false. But in wave-particle duality one experiment proves the electron is a wave, another proves it is a particle.

Strictly speaking, these experiments "prove" is that what they are seeing is neither a particle nor a wave. Which of course physicists have known for a while. They know that using the concepts of "particles" and "waves" are just that -- concepts.

10 posted on 06/15/2003 11:06:23 AM PDT by dark_lord (The Statue of Liberty now holds a baseball bat and she's yelling 'You want a piece of me?')
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To: Alamo-Girl
Whenever you talk creationism, you simply can't get past the chicken or the egg conundrum. It's obvious the "chicken" always comes out of some "egg", ie undifferentiated self into differentiated self. Beginnings are arbitrary, dependent on your perception of time - an immense aspect of what we call consciousness. In physics time/space is same thing. We only have glimpses of other times - life spans of other creatures, altered states of perception. God must be absolute time or timelessness, yet an infinity of times. Your Kabbalistic teachings state categorically that God is ultimately formlessness, void, chaos, nothingness (Ain). Consciousness is recognition of otherness - or binary good/evil, on/off reality - a direct reflection of one's differentiated state. Number comes next, counting the on/off occurences. Whenever the counting starts is the beginning, though the on/off may or may not have been eternally present in God - no beginning per se. In this complexity, arguments of the betterness of creation or evolution would seem to exclude ultra-complex explanations of yet unperceived timelessness and creations. We will never fully grasp the ultimate void (beginning) unless we perceive undifferentiatedness - meaning no consciousness or memory in the sense that we can describe it to one another in linear time-dependent symbolism (language).

All that gobbledygook leads to one question: Is the process of differentiation named creation or evolution? From my perspective it's all about the intent of describing the process. Is mystery mechanical or is mechanical mysterious? Both perspectives can lead to greater knowledge. All that matters is honest exposition.
14 posted on 06/15/2003 11:27:28 AM PDT by JmyBryan
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To: Alamo-Girl
[Bookmarking this thread.] Forgive this intrusion by an amateur.

Because our understanding of the nature of time is not yet complete, it is just as functional to say that a Creator is at work as to say there is not a Creator at work. If one starts with the notion that a Creator of spacetime and all attached to such a reality has a nature greater than the spacetime reality, the likelihood that such an Creator would use evolution (in some manifestation) as a process useful in the ongoing creative effort is acceptable. Nothing yet has 'falsed' that notion. Is it possible some future 'discovery' will false the notion? Well, the answer to that, on a personal, level depends on the level of openness one brings to the debate. In the last analysis, believing there is a Creator at work but we don't grasp the complexities yet is preferrable, to this amateur. To believe otherwise holds the potential for a possibly unpleasant surprise once one is 'beyond' the confines of spacetime as we experience it. Why chance the alternative when nothing compels one to reject the notion of a Creator at work? [Perhaps the 'divine ambivilence' is a part of the plan for evolving the creation. What if there IS a part of our nature that is not confined to spacetime?]

15 posted on 06/15/2003 11:28:31 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
A quick scan gives me the impression that you have produced a thesis of meritorious intellectual content. But I don't have time to fully consider it right now. So I'm bookmarking for later perusal.
16 posted on 06/15/2003 11:33:04 AM PDT by sourcery (The Evil Party thinks their opponents are stupid. The Stupid Party thinks their opponents are evil.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
This article will attempt a new approach - starting at the mathematics/physics angle - to explore the much argued subject of biological evolution.

With all due admiration for your unbounded energy, this is not a new approach at all. You'll encounter a host of mathematicians and physicists who have published articles in places like PRL, J. Theor. Biology, Theor. Pop. Biology, Statistical Physics, J. Mathematical Biology and others. There are hundreds of those researchers who have put forth simple and, sometimes, silly models of evolution. Fields such as thermodynamics, emergence, adaptive systems, and mechanics have all been applied to biological evolution. And don't forget the evolutionists who have developed strong mathematical models of evolution. Names like Smith, Fisher, Haldane, Wright come to mind. The hope is that one of these days, the mathematicians and physicist who devise elegant, clean, simple models of evolution might bother to learn some actual biology.

19 posted on 06/15/2003 11:42:35 AM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Alamo-Girl
A great part of the problem, for example materiality, is that ideas have been contributed to the body of thought in many different languages. Gurfjieff said that everything was material, just different degrees of fineness. He might have said that in Russian, Armenian, or English, doing a running translation as he went and causing ideas somewhat different from his own to appear in the listener's mind. We might observe cyberspace or the noosphere and consider it material somehow. Plato's materiality might be different from Kant's materiality only in that the language each used was different and both are being rendered in English. It's just another level of complication to add to the normal complexity of communicating ideas to family and friends who supposedly speak the same language.
21 posted on 06/15/2003 12:29:04 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: Alamo-Girl
The commonality of genes between diverse species has, besides inheritance, another possible source: "horizontal gene transfer". Bacteria can introduce genes into their hosts, and retroviruses are known to carry genes between animals of the same species (and may carry genes between species as well).

Ref: T.A. Brown, Genomes. Wiley, 1999.

28 posted on 06/15/2003 12:55:05 PM PDT by AZLiberty
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To: Alamo-Girl
...cosmological scenarios are offered that in one way or another repropose a form of the old principle of plenitude ("everything that can exist, does exist"). The existence is thus postulated of an infinity of chances, among which "our case" becomes an obvious favorable case (today the most popular form is that of multi-universes). What is your view on this?

It is very possible, but it is not physics. It is a metaphysics in which recourse is made to a chance that is so enormously limitless that everything that is possible is real. But in this way it becomes a confrontation between metaphysics in which chance collides with purpose. This latter, however, seems much easier to believe! Physics up to now has been based on measurable "data." Beyond this it is a passage of metaphysics. At this point I compare it with another metaphysics. Those who sustain these viewpoints (like Stephen Hawking, for instance) should realize that this goes beyond physics; otherwise it is exaggerated. Physics, pushed beyond what it can measure, becomes ideology.

For whatever reason, this part leaped off the screen as I read it; likely for its reference to purpose and the conclusion leading to ideology.

This is difficult reading due mainly to its length and formatting on this small screen; I could follow it better if your first person remarks were non-italicized ariel font and others in a contrasting form.

It sure is one heck of an effort.

31 posted on 06/15/2003 1:36:52 PM PDT by Old Professer
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To: Alamo-Girl
According to Sir Karl Popper, when given two theories an experiment will decide one true and one false.

Pardon me, but depending on the question, both theories about whatever it is could very well be wrong, or both could be partially right. Life is very rarely so neat and clean as to present you with exactly two possible answers, one absolutely right, and the other absolutely wrong. ;)

35 posted on 06/15/2003 1:55:42 PM PDT by general_re (ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; MHGinTN
I tend to agree with MHGinTN; ( I think ;0P )

As an agnostic, (NOT "Atheist", PLEASE!) I believe in God, but do not believe science will ever produce a proof or disproof of God's existence.
It is something we as human beings will never comprehend, so we just accept it on Faith.
So much for "causality". ( Wasn't my fault mom, God did it. )

Since God created this universe in which we live, God also created the physical laws under which it operates.
This not only encompasses the laws of mass, energy, space-time, motion, gravity, etc., but the laws concerning the formation of life.

I therefore have no problem with evolution as an explanation of how life exists, and how human beings came to be.
That is the way God decided to make the rules, and so it is.
We are continually learning new things about this universe which we live in and we may some day find some of our "assumptions" are incorrect.
( Hey! It could happen! )
It wouldn't be the first time someone's mathematical / physical laws were found to need adjustment.
Newton had to put up with Einstein being closer to the truth than he was. ( actually not, he was already dead. )
Likewise, Einstein couldn't accept the idea that God would "throw dice", but, (for the meantime) has been proven wrong.

Getting back to the point, God is incomprehensible. Get used to it.
God created the universe, and life, and the rules.
We live in the universe God created, and we are life, we just haven't figured out the rules yet, and may continue to struggle with understanding our ONE universe until humanity's demise.
Two out of three ain't bad.

I can imagine the last humans standing on a distant planet at the edge of the universe.
They are praying to a God they believe exists, even though they have not been able to prove it, mathematically or scientifically.
They are asking God to grant them more time, they are sure they can figure it out, if they just could have some more time...

36 posted on 06/15/2003 2:22:37 PM PDT by Drammach
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To: Alamo-Girl
For one thing, to a mathematician the "absence of evidence IS evidence of absence."

Not in mathematics. "Absence of evidence" is only "absence of evidence." In forensics, the quoted statement is true.

50 posted on 06/15/2003 9:19:00 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Ordinary experience provides no clue of this [Heisenberg's] principle.

Not necessarily true. As the uncertainty principle is a consequence of Fourier analysis, most electrical engineers would have seen the same thing in non-QM settings (as would mathematicians working in Fourier analysis.)

51 posted on 06/15/2003 9:23:41 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Couldn't read the article too funny of a headline...you can't make evelutionary steps through the back door.
57 posted on 06/15/2003 9:38:28 PM PDT by Porterville (I support US total global, world domination; how's that for sensitive??)
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To: Alamo-Girl
"Evolution through the Back Door"

I would have chosen a different title for this thread. At least creationists and evolutionists can agree this is impossible.

78 posted on 06/16/2003 4:19:50 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Alamo-Girl
Hah! Let me Solve It All with a theory.

A quark is the four dimensional pixel defining the resolution of reality. When it's "off" it's potential; when it's "on", it's material, and, depending on which are "off" and "on" in the matrix of all quarks, determines what element is present by determining which atom is represented.

Whether a quark is "off" or "on" is controlled by (not the conscious) mind. This is why it's impossible to measure measurements.

So there.

79 posted on 06/16/2003 4:41:43 AM PDT by William Terrell (People can exist without government but government can't exist without people)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
The head if not the heart of all of Science must belong to physics. The discovery of the intricate yet precise and all-encompassing mathematical structures underlying physical reality make it supreme among the sciences. Chemistry and be seen as emanating out of or at least dependent upon physics, and out of chemistry comes biology. To the extent there is any uncertainty within physics that uncertainty must be multiplied at each step removed from that hard science. There remains fundamental uncertainty in physics and the physicists are, generally, humble enough to acknowledge this because their conclusions remain subject to experimental verification.

Not so with the Evolutionists. They indulge is a high level of purported certainty not only without experimental verification but in spite of its lack. When physicists speculate, they so label it. Not so the Evolutionists. Darwinism with be respected as science just as soon as it begins behaving according to its rules. Until then, it will remain a field rife with rank speculation offered to the world as fact and dominated by those with ulterior agendas such as Gould and Dawkins. I've come to believe that the Darwinists are bright enough to know all this and that they are therefore not motivated by the search for scientific truth.

I'm now reading Modern Physics and Ancient Faith by Stephen M. Barr, professor of physics at the Bartol Research Institute, University of Delaware (Thanks, bb). Barr just decimates atheism in a very convincing way. This book should be required reading for all those who endeavor to understand reality.

Thanks for the fine post, A-G.

84 posted on 06/16/2003 6:58:25 AM PDT by Phaedrus
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To: Alamo-Girl
An amazing compilation of analyses, not to mention the genius (if not pure wisdom) needed to probe so deeply, thouroughly, or thoughtfully into an area of such gray matter (pun intended).

The only ointment on this fly is that author must by definition attempt to divine the Divine; to plumb the depth and breadth and scope of God-ness, which (as mortals) we are incapable of by 1:10,000,000,000th (or more), but nonetheless a task which only the most brilliant and humble are driven to undertake with sincere conviction.

That said, an amazing introspection and deserving of a level of colloquy I doubt you'll find available from most here on FreeRepublic... with a couple possible exceptions... :-)

God bless you. For what it's worth, you have earned my eternal respect. You're one surprising Alamo Girl.

102 posted on 06/16/2003 9:56:49 AM PDT by Gargantua (Embrace clarity.)
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