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What do you guys think of this? I do not have a strong opinion concerning the WOD, and I use posts like this to learn more about both sides for and against this.


1 posted on 06/11/2003 3:11:47 AM PDT by yonif
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To: jmc813
Ping.
2 posted on 06/11/2003 3:16:03 AM PDT by yonif
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To: yonif
Excellent article. I too have recently changed my stance on the WOD. This one sentence summarized the article, and is one that even I cannot deny: "This means that more people become innocent victims of what should really only be someone else’s personal problem."

Every single decision we as humans make is based on two basic elements - the need to gain pleasure or the need to avoid pain. Humans by nature are pleasure seekers, and the need to avoid pain is generally the overriding decision to most of us. When the need to gain pleasure overrides the need to avoid pain - then addiction and (social) problems ensue.

Government will never be able to totally legislate or govern our need to seek pleasure. The only alternative is to manage it in a fair and equitable way that causes the minimum amount of harm to society. At least that's the way I see it....

3 posted on 06/11/2003 3:53:40 AM PDT by M. Peach (eschew obsfucation)
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To: yonif
How would the gangs support themselves?

How many boys who join gangs have fathers?

How many women have babies out of wedlock because the men they sleep with put a higher priority on 'freedom" (i.e. drugs, alcohol, partying) than in working hard marrying and caring for their families?

What is overlooked here is that since drugs became "acceptable" in the 1960s and 1970s, that drug laws are rarely enforced at all. Most of the "drug possession" convictions are plea bargains for other crimes by a court overwhelmed by other crimes. (plea bargains for pushers, plea bargains for DUI, plea bargains for theft, plea bargain for assault of a girlfriend or her kid).

Legalizing drugs will "normalize" the behavior, making it epidemic.

A better argument is the way that Mayor Guilliani cleaned up NYC. the previous mayor argued not to bother with minor crimes, since major crimes were so widespread. But Rudi promoted the idea of "broken windows".

When windows are broken, when graffiti is all over, it sends the message to the neighborhood that disorder is allowed, and that the thugs are in charge. Good people move out, and those who can't move out lock themselves in their houses and apartment, virtual prisoners of the disorder.

Young boys see these rich thugs as role models, perpetuating the problem. After all, to thirteen year old boys with no other role models, a rich pim or pusher is more glamourous than working hard, studying etc. And those boys who actually try to study and work hard are looked on as "sell outs" (the real reason is that the gangs know that these boys are right, and recognize that good students prove by their very life that what they are doing is wrong). Disorder sent the message: you can do anything you want, and you won't be punished. So the sociopaths and their emulators ruled.

Rudi, by promoting arresting "minor" crimes sent a message: this won't be tolorated. Those arrested for minor crimes got the message: get arrested for graffiti, or breaking a window, and you know you'll be punished for breaking into a house, beating up a little old lady for her social security check, or shooting a rival gangmember.

The way out of this is to make drugs unacceptable. Getting high or drunk is unacceptable.

This lady's brother could be cured if there were no drugs. But he also could be cured if he lived in a world where drugs were unacceptable. Right now, the main problem to our druggies in staying sober is their old friends who "visit" and entice them back to taking drugs. (a sober ex user is a threat to users, who know they are doing wrong).

If this lady could not only have the law enforce drug treatment for her brother, but be able to arrest his "friends" when they come back to seduce her brother back to drugs, it would be better. What happens now is that the druggies are back out on the street within hours, able to beat up, shoot, or burn down the house of those who reported them to the cops.

So the good are imprisoned, the good are seduced into ruining their lives, and the children and teens are brought up to think drug using is a fun thing without consequences....

4 posted on 06/11/2003 4:04:45 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: yonif; All
What I find amazing is how few of us remember the awesome power of openly expressed disapproval.

There's no question that intoxicants are capable of doing great harm. The word "toxic" is built right into the name! But, as the article notes, government involvement has made matters far worse, just as it did in the Twenties, when city streets ran with blood from gangland warfare over the sale of alcohol.

A law, even a law with the most wholesome of aims, will do more harm than good if enough people decide that it's acceptable to violate it, as LadyDoc notes. How large a fraction is "enough"? Axelrod and Hofstadter's work seems to imply that it's about 2%. Far more Americans than that -- at least 12%, by some recent surveys -- think the drug laws are inane and should be repealed.

BUT...

That doesn't mean the problem of drug abuse is completely intractable. Early 19th century America had a horrible problem with drunkenness. The typical tippler would consume more than two quarts of his favorite guzzle each day! Public order was very much at stake, and legal attempts to deal with the problem failed miserably.

What improved matters was the Christian temperance movement, which gave birth to both the Young Men's Christian Association and the Women's Christian Temperance Union. The WCTU didn't quite adopt the Lysistrata tactic...at least, not publicly...but it is noteworthy that these groups succeeded in reducing alcohol consumption per capita in the U.S. by more than two-thirds between 1835 and 1865. (See Charles Sykes's book A Nation Of Victims for more details.)

Sometimes the old ways really are the best ones.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason:
http://palaceofreason.com

6 posted on 06/11/2003 4:28:03 AM PDT by fporretto (Curmudgeon Emeritus, Palace of Reason)
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To: Wolfie; vin-one; WindMinstrel; philman_36; Beach_Babe; jenny65; AUgrad; Xenalyte; Bill D. Berger; ..
WOD Ping
12 posted on 06/11/2003 7:33:36 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: yonif
Just Think
Just think of the War on Drugs and the victimless lifestyle crimes. By our making so much private behavior illegal, we are in fact making scofflaw criminals of great swaths of the population. This is corrosive to good citizenship, at the least, which leads to degradation of society. Degradation of society is the primary rationale of those folks who support and demand ever more victimless crime penalties and lifestyle regulation.
Think about it.
_________
20 posted on 06/11/2003 3:21:18 PM PDT by gcruse (Superstition is a mind in chains.)
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To: yonif
all drugs should be legalized. the money saved on the
wod should be used for treatment. fedgov and stategov have
no jurisdiction over what people choose to ingest.

molon labe

jart
21 posted on 06/11/2003 8:25:09 PM PDT by jart (smash statism)
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