The DoD needs to get it together on Iraq [Vanity]

Today | Me

[VaBthang4]

I'm started to get irked with this nonsense of S*itbird Iraqis killing American soldiers. I'm starting to get irked with this nonsense of not slamdunking anyone shooting at Americans.

This touchy feely BS needs to end.

Clean out the remaining opposition....not with UN style patrols....clean'em out with CIA payrolled spies and quick strikes carried out by Green Berets, Navy Seals and Recon Marines.

Buld a friggin Guantanamo out in the Western Desert and stick every single Arab with a frown on his face in there until the Iraqi Government can be set up. Let them deal with them later.

...and for God's sake get an interim Government up and running. This is starting to get rediculous...it shouldnt take this long unless incompetence and an inability to make tough decisions is reigning supreme.

[VaBthang4]

Just venting.

[discostu]

It's only been about a month. There's 22 million people in the country, it's a fairly sizable country, exactly how are they supposed to find all the bad guys. It sucks that our people are getting killed, but expectations need to align with the physically possible. Spies aren't some instantaneous panacea, we don't instantly know friend from foe just because the CIA put some dudes on the payroll. Delta (the quiet killers, Green Beret have a different mission) can only go after identified bad guys that we know where they are.

[Pukin Dog]

They are already doing what you suggest.

Were it not for that, you would be seeing 20-30 American deaths every day. Most of these attacks are prevented before they get started. You just are not hearing about them.

It is impossible to prevent every possible attack in 6 weeks. Give them time.

[VaBthang4]

It's been two months and the country's population is of little consequence to anything I touched on. My expectations are that American soldiers arent out like sitting ducks getting killed at checkpoints without real and tangible consequences. My expectations are that if Americans get shot at from a MOSQUE...the mosque comes down. My expectations are that if an Iraqi is caught attempting to throw grenades at American Soldiers, he's popped and allowed to bleed out on the spot.

I am fully aware of Delta and GB profiles. It worked in Afghanistan...it needs to start up in Iraq.

Now.

[VaBthang4]

I'm just getting frustrated with some of this.
This last guy lived down the raod from me...he was killed because he was duped to come and help someone feigning sickness.

How stupid can someone be. What are our ROEs and general orders concerning civilians...and why is a soldier who wasnt a medic going to check on someone who is supposed to be sick.

Some stuff is just simple and to be avoided easily. I dont have patience for dumb mistakes that cost lives...or pretending that helping Iraqis trumps protecting American soldiers. I'd rather some Iraqi puke his guts out and die before I'd put an infantryman at risk allowing him to go see what the problem is....a problem that at the end of the day he personally cant do anything about.

Anyway, like I said....just venting.

[discostu]

Ooh two months, yeah that's so much more time. The population of the country has MAJOR consequences on EVERYTHING you touched on. There's a certain number of people that are bad guys, they are intermixed with the general population that aren't. The more innocent people they have to hide amung the harder they are to find.

When was the last time we tore a building down because of one sniper? Mosque or warehouse, doesn't matter, you don't do that, law of diminishing returns, if that's your habit you wind up tearing down every building in the country and now the snipers are hiding in rubble. When somebody attempts to throw a grenade the first thing you do is duck and cover, then go get the SOB.

Your "methods" would result in more of our guys getting killed, and more of them volunteering to become bad guys. Time to wake up and join us in the real world. In the real world you simply CANNOT do the things you want to do, they won't work EVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

[PISANO]

Are we still using WARTIME RULES of Engagement? I believe they have changed. Bad news, if so. Don't put our forces out there with peace-keeping ROE!!!!! Please, someone tell me I am wrong!

[VaBthang4]

Actually...it's twice as much time as was previously stated.

BS...the majority of these problems are in Baghdad and Fallujah....twenty million people dont live in those two cities....so the population of the country has nothing to do with my points.

Bro, get some CT under your belt and then talk to me about what you do and dont do in the AO.

[discostu]

It's a conquered country you use modified rules of engagement that lean towards slower trigger pulling and hopefully heightened peace between our guys and the native people. Every conquering army has to put up with this crap for a while, how long you have to put up with it historically seems to revolve around how violently you deal with it. Just look at Rome in Israel, the Romans never stopped being twitchy and the Israeli's never stopped fighting back. It's a delicate balance, you don't want to give bad guys too many opportunities but you also don't want to engage in random destruction. I'll trust our guys on the ground, we've been pretty good at this stuff in the past.

[Pukin Dog]

Hey, I'm with you. Too many are dying.

The ROE is a balancing act between maintaining goodwill, and maintaining order. Over time, the people will see that we are not there for the oil. Dont worry though, we are popping folks daily. It will never make the news.

We dont hit the Mosques because it is better to know where they are, then not know. We dont want them to scatter. Give them a single place to be, and just be careful near that place.

[discostu]

Twice buttkiss is still buttkiss. Expect it to take YEARS to settle the area.

Baghdad is only the most populated city in the country, still MILLIONS of people. You think you could find 100 psycho nuts in Phoenix? Guess again. Of course they still have the rest of the country to flee too and hide inbetween attacks. The population of the country STILL APPLIES to your "points", there's still 22 million NON COMBATANTS in the country these psychos are hiding behind and we have to find a way to tell the difference.

Get some history under your belt then tell me all about how many buildings you knock down in conquered territories and expect the people to remain peaceful.

[VaBthang4]

I just wonder if the problems are ROE or a lack of correct orientation to the threat and source.

That's why I called for CIA assets....a payroll and offer of immunity can turn people real quick...identify the legitimate problem and then deal with it. It doesnt take raising Iraqis on the farm up in NVa to deal with it.

I just dont see that happening. Perhaps my frustration causes me to speak out before I "know" all that is happening...but if the idea is that we wave and smile the Iraqis into submition...while Arab imports from Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Saudi keep dropping Americans, then what is happening is out of order.

[VaBthang4]

Thanks for your patience...both on this thread and another. I appreciate it.

I'm sure we will do fine. I am just sensitive to the concept of Generals [especially the incompetent ones] running things. I heard some General say that he thought this is a localized threat that is carried out by remnants of Baathists...I'd rather he assume this is a centralized focus effort by Islamists bent on thwarting the process instead of "thinking" a shot in the dark.

His statement on CBS caused me to go off and waste bandwidth creating this thread.

~Grin~

[VaBthang4]

Sorry...."submission"

[SubMareener]

Why don't you get a job in the Defense industry that will get you access to what is really going on? That way you wouldn't feel so bad. Until then, don't believe everything you read in the newspapers or hear on TV.

[Imperialist]

"This touchy feely BS needs to end."

I agree about the touchy feely PC crap, this is war,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/925396/posts

Also, as I sit here and post, Shep from Fox says al quiada plans to attack the USA home turf within 2 years with WMD.

How long we gonna put up with this sh*t? Let's bring it to the enemy fully and brutally.

[VaBthang4]

Yeah you're right. I should move to DC and go to work for the DIA so they can tell me that one of my neighbors didnt get smoked by two Arabs waiting in ambush while he was going to check on a supposedly "sick" Iraqi.

Thanks for the input.

~Grin~

[discostu]

I don't think there is a problem. These things take time, they always have. We live in a world now that one crashed helicopter makes people talk about quagmire, we expect too much in the way of instant results.

Yes CIA assets can turn people "real quick", first you have to put in the leg work to figure out who would be a good asset, then you've got to figure out their angle, then you get them turned then you get results. Do some research on it, this stuff doesn't happen in a couple months, it happens in a couple years. Anybody lining up to feed us information now is either a shlomo looking to make a quick score or a bad guy trying to feed us disinformation.

Of course you don't see it happening, and if the CIA does it's job you never will. During the course of the Cold War we had THOUSANDS of turned people feeding us information, even now 10 years after it's over at most dozens have become known. If you can see it happening that means our guys are doing a bad job of maintaining OpSec and assets will be getting killed, which not only slows the flow of information it also slows the flow of future assets.

We don't smile the Iraqi's into submission, we smile the regular Iraqi citizen that doesn't see much of the world other than what exists inbetween home and work into accepting us. Same thing we did in Germany, Japan, same thing we're working on doing in Afghanistan, same thing we forgot to do after the Civil War which is still the source of tension in America today. Ruling somebody with an iron fist seems nice because it keeps the short term body count low, but eventually the citizens get sick of it and your iron fist gets shoved right up your butt and the body count winds up a lot higher than it would have been.

[Sparta]

I'm started to get irked with this nonsense of S*itbird Iraqis killing American soldiers. I'm starting to get irked with this nonsense of not slamdunking anyone shooting at Americans.

Glad I'm not the only one.

This touchy feely BS needs to end.

Exactly. They're trying to kill us any means possible, while we're worried about being called "colonialists" and all the other silly names the Left uses.

Clean out the remaining opposition....not with UN style patrols....clean'em out with CIA payrolled spies and quick strikes carried out by Green Berets, Navy Seals and Recon Marines.

You need to back them up though with helicopter gunships, armor, and heavy infantry in case things get a little too sticky in some of these pissant towns.

Buld a friggin Guantanamo out in the Western Desert and stick every single Arab with a frown on his face in there until the Iraqi Government can be set up. Let them deal with them later.

Not enough. You need to completely exterminate the Ba'ath Party. House to house searches in Ba'athist stronghold cities like Fallujah and Tikrit. Interrogate and then dispose of the leadership. Break every one of these guerilla cells and procede to kill or capture them. The general malcontents can go to your new Gitmo. What should happen to these Fedayeen trash is they should be declared enemy combantants, put in front of military tribunals, and dealt with appropriately.

...and for God's sake get an interim Government up and running. This is starting to get rediculous...it shouldnt take this long unless incompetence and an inability to make tough decisions is reigning supreme.

Send these State Department clowns home and put an active duty general in charge of Iraq until a new Iraqi Constitution is written.

[discostu]

See http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,89121,00.html you just need to be more patient. Things are happening they just aren't happening at the speed TV and microwaves have trained us to expect from life.