Lesbian Catholic religious education coordinator denied award from the Archdiocese of St. Paul

The Star Tribune ^ | 02.22.03

[Coleus]

A Catholic religious education coordinator was denied an award from the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis Wednesday evening because she is a lesbian, prompting a protest at the dinner honoring the other 17 recipients.

About 200 members of St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church demonstrated Wednesday night in support of Kathy Itzin, the church's religious education coordinator. Itzin, a member of St. Joan's, was to be one of 18 archdiocesan workers honored for their work in teaching young people about the faith. She is in a relationship with a partner, and they have four children, ages 10 to 16.

[wideawake]

And that is precisely how RC's "use" the bible. It's all a matter of "what can we get away with because it is not expressly forbidden".

I think you've deliberately read past me.

There is such a thing as a Scriptural inference, and they are drawn all the time, even by Christians who adhere to sola Scriptura.

I provided a Scriptural argument - as far as I can see, to deny that we can continue to request the intercession of our fellow Christians simply because they have experienced a physical death which Christ himself explicitly came to free them from is a position which requires a Scriptural defense in and of itself.

It is a legitimate matter of Scriptural debate, but I do not think I am "using" Scripture when I seek to assert Christ's sovereignty over death and the essential unity of His body, the Church.

I understand that you seek to defend a doctrine of Christ's sole mediation for the believer, and that you think that the intercession of the saints undermines it. I do not think you are "using" Scripture by refusing to consider the Scriptural description of what the Church is or the full implications of Christ's triumph over death.

I think that this issue is one on which their is no clear Scriptural decision for either position, but at the same time one which carries a wealth of suggestive Scriptural evidence.

[Elsie]

 

The Bible says that there is ONE intercessor between man and God - Christ Jesus.

 

Why should we pray to a Saint, who will then pray to the Father???

 

 

It ain't biblical or logical.

 

 

 

1 Timothy 2

 1.  I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--
 2.  for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
 3.  This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
 4.  who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
 5.  For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
 6.  who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

[Elsie]

(2) Scripture also says that the saints in heaven offer up prayers to God. cf. Revelation 8.

 

While this is technically true....

Revelation 8

 

 1.  When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
 2.  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
 3.  Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
 4.  The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

 

No where does it indicate that these are DEAD Saints.  How the 'church' managed to grab a perfectly good word that was used to describe ANY believer and change it to mean some dead person who had done some great things while on Earth is something I don't understand.  Therefore, the confusion we are now seeing in this thread.

 

 

The MORMON's have some screwy theology, but at LEAST they've got the definition of 'saint' right!

 

 

 

 

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

 

 

[wideawake]

Why should we pray to a Saint, who will then pray to the Father???

In your opinion, is it wrong for Christians to ask other Christians to pray for them or their intentions?

If I were to ask you now to pray for my brother-in-law who is experiencing an intense stomach illness, would you? Or would you that be against your principles?

[biblewonk]

I think you've deliberately read past me. There is such a thing as a Scriptural inference, and they are drawn all the time, even by Christians who adhere to sola Scriptura. I provided a Scriptural argument - as far as I can see, to deny that we can continue to request the intercession of our fellow Christians simply because they have experienced a physical death which Christ himself explicitly came to free them from is a position which requires a Scriptural defense in and of itself. It is a legitimate matter of Scriptural debate, but I do not think I am "using" Scripture when I seek to assert Christ's sovereignty over death and the essential unity of His body, the Church. I understand that you seek to defend a doctrine of Christ's sole mediation for the believer, and that you think that the intercession of the saints undermines it. I do not think you are "using" Scripture by refusing to consider the Scriptural description of what the Church is or the full implications of Christ's triumph over death. I think that this issue is one on which their is no clear Scriptural decision for either position, but at the same time one which carries a wealth of suggestive Scriptural evidence.

This issue is weaker than the rest of the Mary issue and that is why I usually don't argue it though I think that it is very unscriptural to pray to saints. There is no scriptural precedent to do so. None at all. There is direct scriptural teaching about prayer though. It is arrogant and wrong minded to go around the scriptures and look for a reason to pray to the dead as heathens have done for centuries and say that scripture allows this. It doesn't by due to lack of precedent.

But more to the point, look at the various and sundry doctrines RC's hold about Mary. The immaculate conception, assumption, distributrix of all graces and all the many things I'm sure you've seen me post. This is the much stronger case. This case is the one that makes a true bible believing Christian realize that he is involved in a system of belief that has no basis in scripture at all. This is the doctrine that shows how the RCC "uses" scripture to invent things that are in no way biblical.

[wideawake]

The Scripture says "all the saints" which include both those saints who are living on earth and those which are enjoying eternal life.

The confusion on this thread is due to (1) a difference of opinion as to what exactly the nature of the Church is and (2) what exactly the abilities of a glorified Christian believer are.

The Mormon definition of a saint is a person who worships a physical creature to whom the status of God is attributed. The Catholic definition is a person who worships God as Spirit.

Catholics, as a form of humility, do not generally call themselves saints because they are conscious of their sins and their unworthiness of the title. They do call others saints whom they believe embody true faith in Christ. When a devout Catholic says: "My mother is a saint" or "Mr. so-and-so is a real saint" they mean precisely what they say.

[TankerKC]

Refusing her the award because she's a lesbian "doesn't sound very Godlike to us," he said.

How about a bolt of lightening, then?

[Elsie]

#75

Because we Catholics affirm the communion of saints we believe that we can address the saints regardless of whether they are physically dead - because they are actually more alive than we are.

 

#78

I know you think that. I know it is tradition for you to think that. The bible certainly states that the dead are not dead but the idea that they can hear our requests is not there. The idea that they can intercede for us is not there.

 

---

 

If 'the dead' are with Christ now, then, at the last trump, do they hurry back down to Earth, jump into their old bodies, then rise to meet the Lord in the air???

 

 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
 13.  Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
 14.  We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
 15.  According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
 16.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 
 17.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 18.  Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Are you encouraged??

---

---

 

NIV John 11:11-15
11.  After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
 12.  His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better."
 13.  Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
 14.  So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
 15.  and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

 

Lazarus was a believer: where was his soul for four days??

 

 

NIV Acts 7:59-60
 59.  While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
 60.  Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

DIED 

 

NIV Acts 13:35-36
35.  So it is stated elsewhere: "`You will not let your Holy One see decay.'
 36.  "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.

DIED 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 11:30
 30.  That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

DIED 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:6
 6.  After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

DIED 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 51-52
 20.  But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
 21.  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 23.  But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

It appears to me that the 'dead' are NOT in the presence of the Lord at this time.

.

.

.

 51.  Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
 52.  in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 5:13-14
 13.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
 14.  for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

 

 

NIV Revelation 14:13
 13.  Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."   "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

(Unless you're a 'Saint' in Heaven, then you gotta spend a LOTTA time intercedeing for others!)

 

NIV Revelation 20:5
5.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

WHAT!?!?  They're not with the Lord???

 

NIV Revelation 20:12-15
 12.  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
 13.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
 14.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
 15.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
             Believers                                                                                     non-believers

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Perfectly fine to do so.

You're alive, they're alive.

(Hopefully for a LONG time after we have prayed for them)

[Elsie]

Catholics, as a form of humility, do not generally call themselves saints because they are conscious of their sins and their unworthiness of the title.

 

(Reminds me a bit of Wayne (of Wayne's World) declaring, "I'm unworthy - I'm unworthy!")

The RCC choose to use a word that ALREADY had been defined to mean: Believers in Christ. 

 

From constant usage though, many folks now believe that only someone who is dead, and has had their good works in life voted upon by a panel of learned men, is now able to BE a saint.

 

From the Bible, the meaning is QUITE clear. 

 

---

---

 

 

NIV Acts 9:13
 13.  "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem.

 

 

NIV Acts 9:32
 32.  As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the saints in Lydda.

 

 

NIV Acts 26:10
 10.  And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

 

 

NIV Romans 1:7-8
 7.  To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:   Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
 8.  First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

 

 

NIV Romans 8:27
 27.  And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

 

 

NIV Romans 15:25-26
 25.  Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the saints there.
 26.  For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

 

 

NIV Romans 15:31
 31.  Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there,

 

 

NIV Romans 16:2
 2.  I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.

 

 

NIV Romans 16:15
 15.  Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them.

 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 6:1-2
 1.  If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
 2.  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:33
 33.  For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.   As in all the congregations of the saints,

 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 16:15-16
 15.  You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers,
 16.  to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it.

 

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:1-2
 1.  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,   To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:
 2.  Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:3-4
 3.  For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own,
 4.  they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints.

 

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 9:1
 1.  There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the saints.

 

 

NIV 2 Corinthians 13:13
 13.  All the saints send their greetings.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 1:1-2
 1.  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,   To the saints in Ephesus,  the faithful  in Christ Jesus:
 2.  Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 1:15-16
 15.  For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
 16.  I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 1:18
 18.  I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

 

 

NIV Ephesians 3:16-19
 16.  I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
 17.  so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
 18.  may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
 19.  and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

 

 

NIV Ephesians 6:18
 18.  And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

 

 

NIV Philippians 1:1-2
 1.  Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,   To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers  and deacons:
 2.  Grace and peace to you from God our Father aand the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

NIV Philippians 4:21-22
 21.  Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.
 22.  All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.

 

 

NIV Colossians 1:4
 4.  because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints --

 

 

NIV Colossians 1:12
 12.  giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you  to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.

 

 

NIV Colossians 1:25-26
 25.  I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--
 26.  the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

 

 

NIV 1 Timothy 5:9-10
 9.  No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,
 10.  and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

 

 

NIV Philemon 1:4-5
 4.  I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers,
 5.  because I hear about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints.

 

 

NIV Philemon 1:7
 7.  Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the saints.

 

 

NIV Jude 1:3
 3.  Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

 

 

NIV Revelation 5:8
 8.  And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints

 

 

 

NIV Revelation 8:3-4
 3.  Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
 4.  The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

 

 

NIV Revelation 11:18
 18.  The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

 

 

NIV Revelation 13:7
 7.  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

 

 

NIV Revelation 13:10
 10.  If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

 

 

NIV Revelation 14:12
 12.  This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

 

NIV Revelation 16:5-6
5.  Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;
 6.  for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

 

 

NIV Revelation 17:6
 6.  I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.   When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

 

 

NIV Revelation 18:20
 20.  Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.'"

 

 

NIV Revelation 18:24
 24.  In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."

 

 

NIV Revelation 19:8
 8.  Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

 

 

If the writers of the NT can call believers 'saints'; well, by golly, I'll go with THEIR usage!

[Campion]

The bible certainly states that the dead are not dead but the idea that they can hear our requests is not there. The idea that they can intercede for us is not there.

In other words, when saints are alive, and on earth, they love their brothers and sisters in the Lord, and pray for them. When they die, and go to glory, they are in the presence of God-Who-is-love, who loves every one of his children so much He died for them ... so what do they do? Why, obviously, utterly united to Perfect Love personified, they stop loving their brothers and sisters on earth and stop praying for them.

Makes perfect sense. Not.

If that's where your reading of the Bible leads you, I think Catholic tradition has you beat. It's logical and self-consistent, because it holds that saints in the presence of Perfect Love love their brothers and sisters on earth more than they did on earth.

But the problem isn't in the Bible. It's in your reading of the Bible, because the Bible teaches that the saints in heaven intercede for those of us on earth. Read the first few chapters of Revelation again, because it's in there.

[Campion]

Uh, so your objection to Catholicism centers on the idea that we use words wrong? How awful.

It's also not really very compelling. The Bible also uses "saints" to refer to the blessed dead, unless you think that the "saints" who rose from their tombs at the death of Christ (Matthew's Gospel).

The word simply means "holy ones". Everyone agrees that Christians on earth are "holy ones," at least in the sense of being set apart and dedicated to God. Do you think that the Christian dead in heaven aren't holy, or don't deserve the title of "holy ones"?

[Campion]

Why should we pray to a Saint, who will then pray to the Father???

Why did Paul ask other believers to pray for him? Couldn't he pray for himself? Didn't he know that Christ was his only intercessor?

(The Bible doesn't say that Christ is the only intercessor or the only mediator. Read the passage you quoted in the Greek.)

[wideawake]

It is arrogant and wrong minded to go around the scriptures and look for a reason to pray to the dead as heathens have done for centuries and say that scripture allows this.

Heathens have done things like pray in general for centuries. Heathens have sung hymns for centuries. Heathens have gathered for communal worship for centuries. From a narrowed Old Testament perspective, the entire New Testament is a festival of heathenry.

The fact is that devout Jews did not accept the argument that circumcision and not eating pork were irrelevancies and they did not accept the argument that worshipping a man was also worshipping God.

The inability of other Christians to receive the full implications of the Scriptural doctrine of the communion of the saints does not mean that believing the Church is eternally one in the body of Christ is a heathen notion.

The immaculate conception, assumption, distributrix of all graces and all the many things I'm sure you've seen me post.

I would certainly not argue the point that certain Catholics take saintly intercession to an extravagant and saccharine level.

The doctrine of the immaculate conception is again based on a Scriptural inference - the description of Mary as kecharitoumene or "filled with grace" implies that she was already filled with grace when the angel arrived, making her worthy to bear Christ. We know that all people are naturally conceived in sin. We know that unless we have been forgiven our sins or have never sinned we can't have grace. We know from Paul that Mary's obedient faithfulness to the law did not bring her grace. How was it possible for her to be full of grace if she was in her sins?

The inference the Catholic draws is that Christ, who "before Abraham was, I am" had preserved her from sin by his power in order to make her worthy to bear him, even under the law. The immaculate conception is a Christian answer to a Scriptural difficulty.

The assumption follows from this doctrine: if she was never touched by original sin, her body was never subject to the corruption which that sin brings. Both Enoch and Elijah were assumed into Heaven, so there is certainly Scriptural precedent.

As far as "distributrix of all graces" this is a hyperbolic statement which I do not believe to be part of official Catholic teaching. She is a participator in the redemption because God allowed her to cooperate in his work of bringing the Savior into the world. All grace comes from Christ and Christ literally came from her womb - to use a cruder Scriptural example: when Christ rubs mud on the blind man's eyes, is the mud a distributor of Christ's healing power to the blind man? In a way, yes.

But there is no doubt as to the true source of the healing power.

If Mary was conceived immaculately it is not because she was somehow sinless through her own merit - it was the power of Christ her son working in her. If she was assumed into Heaven like Elijah it was not on her own merit, but the power of her Son welcoming her into His kingdom. If she is the means He used to enter the world it is because He chose her as His vessel.

But Christ was sinless by His own divine power, He ascended into Heaven by his own divine power and any grace which anyone receives comes from Him, no matter which means He uses to distribute it.

I fully understand why you may have an argument against each one of these Scriptural inferences, but I would not believe them if I thought they were simply made up of whole cloth without regard to Scriptural truth.

[wideawake]

From constant usage though, many folks now believe that only someone who is dead, and has had their good works in life voted upon by a panel of learned men, is now able to BE a saint.

No Catholic who knows their Catechism can make this mistake.

The Catholic Church teaches that all who authentically witness Christ are saints. The Church specifically has a day, called All Saints Day, to commemorate all the Christian saints who have not been officially canonized. Nowhere in Catholic teaching will you find the notion that only canonized individuals are saints - the canonized are only a subset, hopefully a tiny subset, of all the saints.

As for the bit about humility - you will notice that Paul nowhere refers to himself as a saint, but as an apostle (to designate his calling) or as a slave. He calls others saints, but not himself. Just like other Catholics do.

[wideawake]

Perfectly fine to do so. You're alive, they're alive.

So the saints in heaven, who enjoy eternal life with Christ are actually not alive?

Either the saints in heaven are more alive than we are, or Christ's sacrifice was in vain and eternal life is an empty hope.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say: "only ask those who are still trapped in the body of this death to pray for you."

[wideawake]

Oh, and Elsie, I'd like an answer to my question.

Regardless of whether someone is physically alive, you wondered why one should ask a saint to pray for me to the Father, when one can just pray to the Father themselves.

So I ask again, why should one ask a living person to pray to the Father for them, when they can just pray to the Father themselves?

If it ain't logical in one case, why is it logical in the other?

[wideawake]

So you believe that the souls of the dead are suspended in nothingness or in corrupt bodies until the Last Judgment?

Are you a Jehovah's Witness, by any chance?

As far as your analogy of souls "rushing back down" to earth, this is a silly anthropomorphism.

The soul is spirit, not flesh. It is not limited in space, since it is incorporeal and it is not limited in time since it is immortal.

When God in the OT "stands" and "stretches out his arm" is he really performing these physical acts? Perhaps you have taken more from Mormonism than you realize.

[Trailerpark Badass]

Watching some of these amateurish attempts at exegesis is kinda like watching a monkey with a loaded gun: amusing and scary both at the same time.

[luvtheconstitution]

My thoughts exactly. Just goes to show how far the gay activists have influenced the Catholic church. Can any of them (gays) cite where God's lays have changed regarding morality? No, they just try to reinterpret parts of the bible to suit their perversions. There's no denying God's disdain of Babylon.