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You might like someones logic because of Bastiat, (who I never read, I am reading Blackstone), but...

One thing here that hasnt been emphasized enough, is what I see as the main cause of all this, and it isnt free trade so much, it is the idea of Western Technology being handed to foreign nations with government run companies in a facistic manner, propped up with government funds to cover losses incurred from the lack of experience of the new workers.

In other words, we are not being outsourced to able people, we are being outsourced to nations that prop up their companies, contract for twice as much work to be done so that in filtering out products that fail inspection, they still have enough product to release that fits the specs.

For example, in China, they are ordered to make 50 engine casings for the F-100 engine. They dont cast 50 cases or even 51, they cast 100 or 150.

That way, they have the material to try to learn how to make the part, and all errors in manufacturing are paid for by the government, not the company.

Has anyone here ever thought of that? That is NOT FREE TRADE and that is sure not CAPITALISM! That is FASCISM of a sort, that is SOCIALISM, it is a planned economy, it is government propping up failed industries in order to make a final product and give their people time to produce on a scale that is competitive with the west.

Name one industry in the US where the government props up that industry on a grand scale to make sure they can compete and pass the learning curve. The only one I can think of is AMTRAK and that is because trains are a vital industry to the national security. Jet engines are not unless you are making them for your military, and Pratt engines made in China are CIVILIAN engines for jet liners, not fighters.

So, think on this a while, this is why people like me lament these free trade agreements and outsourcing. It does NOT represent free market capitalism, it is capitalism against Fascism, it is private industry against Government spending to compete in the market.

Do you all remember how much of this started? We did it as charity, we sent down textile industries to 3rd world countries to help them lift up their economies.

Did these countries develop their industries themselves? NO. We did it for them, and that is not market capitalism. They did not spend the money to develop these industries, they did not force themselves to learn how to do it themselves, they took world welfare from us, they did not do it through hard work, they did it because of corporate and federal greed.

Did the market keep them afloat the first few years? NO, their governments did, and that is not market capitalism.

I remember in 2nd grade, hearing a substitute teacher explain this type of charity from governments, and I asked her,"What will happen 20 years from now, though, when they will be makng it cheaper then us, wont they put us out of business?"

She said I was a real John Bircher! And guess what? Does anyone here know of any major textile industry in your neighborhood? I mean one that is still in operation. Does anyone here doubt that what I asked her 35 years ago is true and worsening? WE ARE GIVING AWAY TECHNOLOGY to 3rd world nations and we are making ourselves unemployed when we do it!

How many of you remember the late 80's and the economic boom of the South? Western Virginia, North Carolina had work galore, and why? Because the market demanded that we cut costs, and companies relocated to the south, where there was no history of high tech labor, therefore there was no history of high wages, therefore lower work costs.

That is not wrong, that is the market, that is capitalism, and the work stayed in the country and it was Americans that profited from it. It was tough luck for some of us up here, but hey, it stayed in the country. Is that what we are making points on though? NO, we are talking about the loss of jobs OVERSEAS to companies that do NOT put their profits back into Americans pockets, but instead put the profits into the pockets of foreign governments and foreign individuals. And to point that out does not make me a socialist, but for some of you to defend it with the wave of the hand and call it FREE MARKET CAPITALISM makes YOU the fool, not I.

Did you know the rubbber for Convese Sneakers used to be made in Naugatuck Connecticut? Where is it made now? Want to see a whole bunch of abandoned factories? Come up north.

Ever hear of New Departure? They used to make parts for ACDELCO. Know where that work went? Mexico. I have some floor space I can rent you if you are interested in Bristol. 100,000 sq feet of it. Parking for 500, too.

Companies in my old home town on the canal are abandoned, they used to employ over 2000 people, making electrical tinsel, paper, valves, chucks for lathes and drill presses. All gone to China. Except for the paper mill, but a Chinese companyowns itnow, did you ever hear of that recently? (I was told it was Chinese, I have to check)

I worked for a company that did stamping and progressive die, I did some drafting for them. 5 years ago was my first time there, short term work, they had 200 people in there, all immigrants off the boat from Poland or Central America, had a special bus for them paid by the company. All making minimum wage only. Know where they make stuff now? China. The shop floor is a ghost town.

Pratt & Whitney. Jet engines. in the 70's, they had over 75,000 people working at 5 plants in the state. Southington is closed. Middletown is almost closed. East Hartford is open and running, but total employees there are about 10,000 total.

Hamilton Standard, valves for engines, fuel controls, astronaut back packs, zero-g toilet, high tech prop technology, 25,000 people in 1976.

3000 now. And that was only 5000 before 9/11.

Connecticut is the only state I know of with negative growth, we lost a federal congressman, Maloney (Thankfully). But still, jobs here are scarse, and one reason is foreign nationa are propping up their work with government money, and that is not free market, that is Socialism or a form of Fascism, and that is not Free Market Capitalism.

So, you guys who are calling us whiners for pointing all this out and saying we are just doom and gloomers, explain how a government supported industry can honestly compete with a private controlled industry, when the government industry does not have to worry about profit or loss, while the private industry does?

Then tell me how that is Free Market Economics. Tell me how a government supported industry, like Jet Engines in Poland and China, tell me how that is Capitalism.

I'll wait.

Is PW Hartford an open shop?

Then tell me how that is Free Market Economics. Tell me how a government supported industry, like Jet Engines in Poland and China, tell me how that is Capitalism.

Airbus is a Govt subsidised enterprise that is stealing contracts from Boeing.
So what do you suggest we do?

Personally I won't fly on any airline that buys Airbus...but I am only one person.

Well said.

One thing you have to consider is the sell-in market to other countries. Boeing is the best example. Had Boeing only had the American marketplace to sell into, it would have to downsize drasically and raise prices just to stay afloat; along with government regs banning Airbus selling into America.

This is how things used to be in other countries, before American industry agreed to outsource a percentage of production to the buyer nation. The reality is that there are very few American-only markets left. If you want to sell abroad, you have to play by the rules of the buyer.

You have to ask yourself if you would be willing to have an American only aircraft from Boeing at the expense of thousands of jobs, and higher prices. Almost everything we buy in America that is imported is gotten for an incredible discount; especially petroleum products. If you impose the kinds of government protection that goes on elsewhere, you will lose that price-protection along with it. How do you suppose Americans would like paying $5.50 for a gallon of gasoline?

You mentioned the negatives behind our Free Trade agreements, but you left out the positives. Protectionism will only make things worse here, not better.

The tax, regulate and spend state of CT died 15 years ago when it started losing all the big defense contracts that it relied so heavily on. You've had fifteen years to make adjustments, so it just doesn't make sense that you waited so long and got yourself into such an angry state.

Everyone feels sorry for those affected, but not sorry enough to throw away the future of America by laying down what would be a dangerous precedent of caving into one loud temporarily affected, self-pitying group that is being USED by labor organizers. Within the narrow sphere of freaked out techies, it may seem like you will have the power to organize labor and to direct public policy, but you don't.

Strictly economically speaking, AMERICA benefits from the deal and the socialist country eventually loses out in the end.

Our market gets a product or service that costs our economy less resources to achieve. As I said before, this frees up resources to be spent elsewhere.

Let's go back to the ever popular "banana example". Our market would be much more taxed if we consumed bananas grown in the US. As we all know, it would cost significantly more than in more tropical climates. Now, let's cut out the climate aspect and say that we can get bananas cheaper from other countries because their government "props up" the banana industry in their country. From our point of view, we are still getting the less expensive product, and our economy still benefits from it.

Therefore, it is moot, how other countries supply the cheaper product or service. The fact that it is provided is a benefit to the consumers and business owners that do not reside under those socialist policies.....