Outsourcing hits US techies hard

American Express just closed up it's Finance department here in the Phoenix home office. 300 jobs lost. Accountants, AP, AR, customer service, analysts.

Yes! Amex used to own ten buildings here in the greater Phoenix area, filled with operations personnel. Their operations have now been outsourced to an Indian contracting firm called Tata. So it's been "tata" to a once-major employer in this area.

"I was already on the Captain's list on my way to flying a desk at War College"

That's one of the reasons that my nephew bailed at 10 years and went with Delta, they were fazing out the F-4s, his squadron being the last and instead of transitioning him to F-18s they were going to send himn to the war college where his flying career would have ended. The other reason was that his wife has a big mouth which wouldn't have done well in the upper ranks where the wife's manners and social amenities are important if you want to advance plus he was 34, the cutoff age for going with the airlines.

As far as that clown popooing carrier landings, having done 3 hours in the S-3 simulator on North Island, he had better rethink that. I had over 1800 hours at the time and it took me until the 4th attempt before I made it without wiping out, short final is a bitch! The biggest problem I had was that the previous 1400 had been in my Saratoga, left hand yoke, right hand controls and with right hand stick and left throtles on the S-3 I cross coordinated when things got dicy!

Amex outsourced to IBM

Ummm, noo..in this instance they outsourced to India. My huband is a CPA the buzz was all over town, as it is whenever a major employer closes up shop.

I almost left when my first squadron was disbanded, (VF-111) but I got talked out of it, and got the opportunity to learn from "snort" the best Tomcat driver ever born, later on as Adversary in A-4's and F-16N's. When I got to the Dogs' I was a real killer.

The Tomcat has this nice little switch called a DLC (direct lift control), that is tied directly to the wing spoilers. You fly the groove a bit high on centerline, and on short, you pop that switch and kill enough lift to drop into a nice ball. Saved me many times, when I was in the A, because it was a lot easier than chasing the throttle lag in the TF-30.

What does the Church have to say about the duties and obligations of employer and employee? Is the outsourcing of jobs moral, or morally neutral?

I don't remember much about that, but I do know that there shouldn't be a problem if a company needs something done "yesterday", and yet don't have the time to hire staff.

I think there are two abuses to this. First, they bring a few consultants or temps on board for what may at first seem like a long-term project but ends up being a permanent thing for the company. Those who do well should have an option to be brought on as full-time employees with benefits, if possible. I'm not sure if corporations know that some consulting firms or temp/staffing agencies are not paying what the consultants are worth (which is the first obligation of the employer). It seems like such corporations do this in the name of saving money, but that may end up hurting the consultant at the end of the day. The second is just a part of a reason why I hate globalism: near-permanent loss of domestic jobs. Why contribute to selling out of the national patrimony?

This issue kind of reminded me of the H1B controversy from a ways back: some companies use that to exploit foreign workers, and that is dead wrong.

There's exploitation everywhere. Time to get a farm or start a business.

After more research, I have discovered that they have outsourced to IBM, who then outsourced offshore to at least 7 countries. They have also outsourced offshore to "TaTa" and several others. They have a cooperative IT program in England.

As a matter of fact, Amex is considered a leader in successful, global, offshore outsourcing.

There have been a lot more than 300 jobs cut in the process. Sorry.

But really, besides the anecdotal evidence that we have all experienced, is there any real data stating that companies, who are already getting low quality services from an offshore provider, are then shipping out their customer service components?

You simply increase the tax benefits for corporations that hire US workers, located inside the borders. For every employee hired with health insurance benefits, etc., you match 20% of the salary of that worker in tax benefits. You would find American call centers opening overnight.

Actually, what I was saying in this post was that the validity of expensing offshore services can be called into question.

In essence, a tariff would be collected if offshoring services were not expensed (deducted from profits).

Increasing tax benefits for corporations that don't outsource would be very difficult to evaluate and may not generate the intended business behavior.

There have been a lot more than 300 jobs cut in the process

I was refering to the Finance dept. here in Phoenix. That was about 300 jobs. As far as what has happened nationally in the IT arena, I have no idea. You are probably correct.

" In essence, a tariff would be collected if offshoring services were not expensed (deducted from profits)."

I think we have the same goals, but through different methods. More after this...

"Increasing tax benefits for corporations that don't outsource would be very difficult to evaluate and may not generate the intended business behavior."

Actually it would not. Imagine the benefit to the remainder of us self-employed taxpayers if corporations (including us self employed schmucks) were allowed to deduct the cost of health insurance and retirement programs (as guranteed benefits using a FDIC insurance type program)from their tax bill. For employees that elected not to use the corporate supplied insurance option, a seperate itemization could be expanded into the tax code. As it sits now, the rats along with many RINO's want health insurance and other bennies to be taxed. That pisses me off beyond all perception, but I understand their socialized reasons why.

If you want to expand the American workforce, keep the jobs at home, and make it profitable for corporations to stay home, you have to lower the cost of labor. The problem now is that the benefits and just assinine regulatory policies have made it unprofitable for the "mundane" and now "high tech" jobs to remain here. Make it an attractive option and they will stay home. The other added benefit is that it eradicates the points the socialized medicine crowd tries to make. Screw them. Let the tax code pay for it via breaks to corporations. Of course, this is all a pipe dream. I'm going to put my pipe down now and grab a cigar and a scotch and watch the sunset.

ping

We have 19 openings WE CAN NOT FILL! For programmers!

LOL! Sure, 19 programing jobs that can't be filled in the USA today? What are you smoking?

I have a friend that is part of a small start-up (still in business) - they sent their programming work to India - it sorta worked but the language barrier made the code nearly impossible to support - so now they have taken back the code and are trying to fix it. India is not producing better code - just cheaper code.

The language barrier? They speak ENGLISH!

You and a few others here need to abandon the ALL YOU WHINERS ARE JUST INVOLVED IN SELF PITY kick and instead look at the reality of the situation here.

Nobody is denying the reality of ANY situation here.

We just object to all the negativity and defeatism being spread by some.. when the situation demands just the opposite.

We're responding to an article about a man who choses to KILL HIMSELF because he was a "victim" of outsourcing.. and got laid off. Ok?

Somehow I doubt what he and everybody going through hard times needs to read is the doom and gloom you and some others post here....to discourage them even more...to help push them over the edge.

But really, besides the anecdotal evidence that we have all experienced, is there any real data stating that companies, who are already getting low quality services from an offshore provider, are then shipping out their customer service components?

Denigrating real-world experience reports as "anecdotes" is a favorite technique of academic liberals who prefer the comfort of social-science statistics (as distinct from hard-science data points) that they can manipulate to prove that Rhode Island is larger than Alaska.

Since the IT collapse, I have repurposed my business toward maintenance of the many Windows, Macs and Linux systems that are already out there. This brings me in contact with a lot of corporate customer support operations. My experience with offshored customer support is duplicated in working with Gateway, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, and Compaq. Since these are the major players in the industry, what other data could possibly add to my conclusion?

Not to get into it with you, but something that totally opened my eyes was working for a man who owned his own business.

And what totally opened my eyes was owning my own business, and seeing it (along with much of my life) go down the tubes.

Something many American workers never understand is that getting a job does not require a help wanted sign. What made America what it is is entrepreneurs who found a need and filled it. They didn't polish up resumes hoping some big company would hire them. They CREATED their own job.

So did I. Trouble is, I went broke at it. That's why I'm not doing it now.

Fact is, most new small businesses fail. I thought I was dedicated enough and hard-working enough and talented enough to beat the odds. But they were stacked pretty high, and I didn't beat them. They beat me.

That's not to say I'll never go into business for myself again. I almost certainly will. But first, I have to find a way to survive today.

Simply a need in the market is required.

A lot more than a need in the market is required. Connections are required (which I did not have). Skill in business management is required. Skills in sales and marketing are required. Legal knowledge is required. Capital is required (again, which I did not have). ALL the necessary skills for doing what the CUSTOMERS want are required.

Again, I've no doubt I'll do it again, and hopefully this time I'll succeed. But first, I have to fully recover from business failure (as well as stretches of unemployment and underemployment). Financially, emotionally, my family... Right now, even $10 an hour in the hand, as little as it is, is better than theoretical riches in the bush.

that's the flow, first move your IT to IBM, then IBM moves them to India, I see it happening every day.

You must be someone who only got laid off once, right? I have had over 30 jobs inthe last 10 years.

the only CAD jobs offered in the papers in the last 6 months are for BS degreed or civil engineering, which is not my field, I am mechanical, or some obscure high end CAD that is only taught through some high priced group you cannot afford after 2 or 3 months on unemployment.

I have shown more detemination just in surviving through this than any of you so-called heros here that think you are taking the high road calling us whiners, I havent quit yet, nor am I quitting, So take your accusation and stick it. I would love to see you go through half what I have been through in this state looking for work and keep your so-called optimism. My outlook is not defeat, it is reality. And don't tellme you live by the grace of God unless you have been tested. I have been tested like you cannot imagine, and I am well aware that the only chance i have of surviving anything is by His grace while you yourself have probably not even been through 1/10 of what I have professionally.

Is there no end to your lamentations?

The idea that you would post the above to somebody whose life you know nothing about..displays an amazing degree of self absorption.

Contrary to your claims...I've been laid off numerous times in my life.

When my career disappeared because jobs went south and then overseas..I went back to school to learn an entirely new one. And when the demand for my speciality has diminished..I have learned others.
I've taken all sorts of jobs that had nothing to do with my skills just to survive.

I've swept floors, cleaned houses, delivered papers and telephone books, painted apartments and houses, scrubbed floors, did yard work and all kinds of odd jobs to get by. I lived on the streets in my late teens for almost a year not knowing where my next meal was coming from day to day. I worked for $1/hr folding T-Shirts.

20 years ago I went from being High School drop out who knew basically nothing to graduating first in my college class with a 4.0 GPA...... because all the jobs from my previus career went overseas.

I am now in the process of basically learning a 4th career skill in order to adapt to demands and remain employed.

And I've done all this while fighting a debilitating condition for the past 5 years that stops most people from working..has cause me to go deaf in one ear and possibly the other in time..and also discovered I have a terminal disease and will be lucky if I am not dead or at least completely disabled within the next ten years.

But because I believe in optimism and the American spirit when faced with challenges and adversity, and the need to have gratitude to God... you feel the need to lecture me on not knowing what it means to be "tested".

Unlike you..I don't have the luxury of spending whatever time I have left blaming others for my lot in life.

Sorry.

I'm not going to give you any advise at all. I'll just tell you that YOU are the reason you are unemployed not some Indian 6000 miles away.

Thanks sooooooo much for the helpful comment. Thanks for freely and confidently pointing the finger of blame and condemnation 100% at me ("j'accuse!") when (not to be rude, but to be perfectly, 100% accurate) you don't know a single damn thing about my specific situation -- except that I currently don't have a job in my field.

One thing I've learned -- there is NO shortage whatsoever on people who, when they find somebody with the stuffings kicked out of them, or somebody who's been bloodied in a freeway pileup (figuratively speaking), are eager to pile on and instantly exclaim to the person bleeding on the roadside (although they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the situation), "It's all YOUR fault that you're suffering!"

This isn't to say I don't adhere to the principle that we all need to make the right choices, and are responsible for our own destiny. Certainly I do. I'm not and have never been into "I'm a victim, you're a victim, she's a victim, we're all victims." Nor am I into the nanny state.

But I'll tell you what: getting the **** kicked out of you while doing your dead level best to be completely self-reliant, and to responsibly provide for others, and to have even a little bit of success, certainly makes you appreciate the help that's available to assist those who are genuinely going through hard times.

But I doubt you really have the faintest clue, or even the faintest desire to understand, what I'm talking about.

Where are the people who say, "There, but for the grace of God, go I"? Ya got me.

You take the name of Luke Skywalker as your screen name, any idea what a heroic life is?

All too well, I'm afraid. Quite a few years (this sounds rather silly in print, but I'm afraid it's 100% true) of literal unselfish heroism, at my own expense, have contributed significantly to the financial misery I am in right now. That's not anything but plain fact. But I don't expect you to know, or care, anything about that.

No, you just go right ahead with your comfortable role of applying the healing balm of blame to anyone and everyone you should happen to find injured on the road.

You might like someones logic because of Bastiat, (who I never read, I am reading Blackstone), but...

One thing here that hasnt been emphasized enough, is what I see as the main cause of all this, and it isnt free trade so much, it is the idea of Western Technology being handed to foreign nations with government run companies in a facistic manner, propped up with government funds to cover losses incurred from the lack of experience of the new workers.

In other words, we are not being outsourced to able people, we are being outsourced to nations that prop up their companies, contract for twice as much work to be done so that in filtering out products that fail inspection, they still have enough product to release that fits the specs.

For example, in China, they are ordered to make 50 engine casings for the F-100 engine. They dont cast 50 cases or even 51, they cast 100 or 150.

That way, they have the material to try to learn how to make the part, and all errors in manufacturing are paid for by the government, not the company.

Has anyone here ever thought of that? That is NOT FREE TRADE and that is sure not CAPITALISM! That is FASCISM of a sort, that is SOCIALISM, it is a planned economy, it is government propping up failed industries in order to make a final product and give their people time to produce on a scale that is competitive with the west.

Name one industry in the US where the government props up that industry on a grand scale to make sure they can compete and pass the learning curve. The only one I can think of is AMTRAK and that is because trains are a vital industry to the national security. Jet engines are not unless you are making them for your military, and Pratt engines made in China are CIVILIAN engines for jet liners, not fighters.

So, think on this a while, this is why people like me lament these free trade agreements and outsourcing. It does NOT represent free market capitalism, it is capitalism against Fascism, it is private industry against Government spending to compete in the market.

Do you all remember how much of this started? We did it as charity, we sent down textile industries to 3rd world countries to help them lift up their economies.

Did these countries develop their industries themselves? NO. We did it for them, and that is not market capitalism. They did not spend the money to develop these industries, they did not force themselves to learn how to do it themselves, they took world welfare from us, they did not do it through hard work, they did it because of corporate and federal greed.

Did the market keep them afloat the first few years? NO, their governments did, and that is not market capitalism.

I remember in 2nd grade, hearing a substitute teacher explain this type of charity from governments, and I asked her,"What will happen 20 years from now, though, when they will be makng it cheaper then us, wont they put us out of business?"

She said I was a real John Bircher! And guess what? Does anyone here know of any major textile industry in your neighborhood? I mean one that is still in operation. Does anyone here doubt that what I asked her 35 years ago is true and worsening? WE ARE GIVING AWAY TECHNOLOGY to 3rd world nations and we are making ourselves unemployed when we do it!

How many of you remember the late 80's and the economic boom of the South? Western Virginia, North Carolina had work galore, and why? Because the market demanded that we cut costs, and companies relocated to the south, where there was no history of high tech labor, therefore there was no history of high wages, therefore lower work costs.

That is not wrong, that is the market, that is capitalism, and the work stayed in the country and it was Americans that profited from it. It was tough luck for some of us up here, but hey, it stayed in the country. Is that what we are making points on though? NO, we are talking about the loss of jobs OVERSEAS to companies that do NOT put their profits back into Americans pockets, but instead put the profits into the pockets of foreign governments and foreign individuals. And to point that out does not make me a socialist, but for some of you to defend it with the wave of the hand and call it FREE MARKET CAPITALISM makes YOU the fool, not I.

Did you know the rubbber for Convese Sneakers used to be made in Naugatuck Connecticut? Where is it made now? Want to see a whole bunch of abandoned factories? Come up north.

Ever hear of New Departure? They used to make parts for ACDELCO. Know where that work went? Mexico. I have some floor space I can rent you if you are interested in Bristol. 100,000 sq feet of it. Parking for 500, too.

Companies in my old home town on the canal are abandoned, they used to employ over 2000 people, making electrical tinsel, paper, valves, chucks for lathes and drill presses. All gone to China. Except for the paper mill, but a Chinese companyowns itnow, did you ever hear of that recently? (I was told it was Chinese, I have to check)

I worked for a company that did stamping and progressive die, I did some drafting for them. 5 years ago was my first time there, short term work, they had 200 people in there, all immigrants off the boat from Poland or Central America, had a special bus for them paid by the company. All making minimum wage only. Know where they make stuff now? China. The shop floor is a ghost town.

Pratt & Whitney. Jet engines. in the 70's, they had over 75,000 people working at 5 plants in the state. Southington is closed. Middletown is almost closed. East Hartford is open and running, but total employees there are about 10,000 total.

Hamilton Standard, valves for engines, fuel controls, astronaut back packs, zero-g toilet, high tech prop technology, 25,000 people in 1976.

3000 now. And that was only 5000 before 9/11.

Connecticut is the only state I know of with negative growth, we lost a federal congressman, Maloney (Thankfully). But still, jobs here are scarse, and one reason is foreign nationa are propping up their work with government money, and that is not free market, that is Socialism or a form of Fascism, and that is not Free Market Capitalism.

So, you guys who are calling us whiners for pointing all this out and saying we are just doom and gloomers, explain how a government supported industry can honestly compete with a private controlled industry, when the government industry does not have to worry about profit or loss, while the private industry does?

Then tell me how that is Free Market Economics. Tell me how a government supported industry, like Jet Engines in Poland and China, tell me how that is Capitalism.

I'll wait.