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Reasonable People Cannot Always Agree To Disagree
Self ^ | 5/12/2003 | Marvin Galloway

Posted on 05/12/2003 8:23:00 PM PDT by MHGinTN

Don’t you just love it when someone with whom you're arguing says, “Well, we will just have to agree to disagree”, as a spin of the phrase ‘Reasonable people can agree to disagree’, or as the shortened version, ‘Reasonable people can disagree’? Can reasonable people disagree over cannibalism in order to permit cannibalism, without doing violence to civilization?

As a pro-life advocate who gets into lots of discussions, I hear this ‘agree to disagree’ more and more. It tells me my points are getting to the irrational heart of defense for the abortion slaughter. When an advocate for abortion of alive little ones trapped in a womb tries to discuss the topic from a reasoned position, irrational underpinnings are eventually exposed and the ‘reasoning’ stops, in favor of either ending the discussion or deflecting the ‘reasoning’ into areas better defined as emotional landmines.

A whole new field of argument is arising in defense of exploiting individual human lives. There is a common foundation for these arguments, a theme running through the lines of reasoning from the ‘pro-choice’ camp, but the origins of that commonality are not to be found in choice to abort; it has a more subtle beginning than that.

Prior to ‘choice to abort’, dehumanization of individual life had already laid a foundation for exploiting and choosing, a basis for viewing individual human life as a phenomenon that grows in value, as opposed to being endowed with unalienable right to be. And it came into our collective psyche as a supposed benefit to humankind, a means to have science aid in conceiving babies with ‘artificial insemination’. Subtracting from our humanity, artificial insemination moved to more detached dehumanization, with in vitro fertilization, the scientific ‘miracle’ of conceiving ‘something’ outside of the woman’s body, then that thing being implanted into a woman’s body, to have a ‘growing (increasing) right to live’. [Devout Catholics would say contraception was the beginning of dehumanization, but that’s an historical discussion and not the focus of this essay. The Roe abortion decision came in 1973, but ‘artificial insemination’ had been a reality for years prior to Roe. The first in vitro fertilization baby in the world was born in July of 1978 in England, after many years of research. Today, many thousands of children are born annually as a result of the IVF technique.]

I cannot recall what I thought when first I learned that something could be conceived in a petri dish that would later be implanted in a woman’s body, to even later be born as a human baby. I have a vague recollection from my youth that some people warned against artificial insemination, warned that such manipulation of human conception would lead to a dehumanization process, a ‘slippery slope’. I don’t quite remember what was warned of down that slippery slope, but I don’t have to remember, because we are living in the age of arrival!

Now, at this descended-to plateau, engulfed in a degree of darkness not anticipated so long ago, we are again facing a slippery slope. How will we come to recognize it as a hazardous slope? … This time the hazard has a name. Will America reject cannibalism, despite the campaign to focus only upon the utilitarian value of cannibalism, diverting attention from the truth that we face cannibalism? If prepared properly, we will accept cannibalism, just as we accepted in vitro fertilization. [Note: I purposely repeat the word rather than allude to the reality. Cannibalism should have a revulsion value. Modern examples of cannibalism, such as the incident with plane crash victims who survived by eating the flesh of already dead crash victims, tend to blur our historic revulsion to cannibalism. Let’s focus upon the Jeffrey Dhamer version of cannibalism, the kill and consume version, as opposed to the ‘harvest from accidentally dead’ version of cannibalism.]

What could make cannibalism more palatable, more consumable? … Allow me to illustrate by sharing a recent discussion I had with a close cousin, a father of four.

My cousin asked me to explain a recent news story in which a research scientist was profiled for an heroic desire to cure his daughter’s spinal injury by developing protein matched tissues for transplantation. Nowhere in the story was the viewer (it was a TV presentation) given the underlying facts of how this tissue would be generated, only that stem cells closely matched to the daughter’s tissues would be harvested to treat her injury. As I explained the process of ‘therapeutic cloning’ (methodology the scientist intends to rely upon for the tissues he desires), my cousin displayed no revulsion to the process. No matter how graphic my description of the cloning and killing process, my cousin could see only the utilitarian value of the harvesting, never the cannibalistic reality of killing an individual human being conceived for the sole purpose of harvesting spare parts to treat the older individual human being. I was shocked that a well-educated man would not be repulsed by this cannibalism. Upon later reflection, I understood why. It’s that damn slippery slope!

Once the descending plateau is reached, an acceptance quotient has been established. In the case of therapeutic cloning, the acceptance quotient involves a speciously arranged ‘degree of humanness’ … a conceptus, or zygote, or embryo, or second (or even third) trimester fetus is not deemed a full human being. Nay Sayers will not be allowed to interfere with utilitarian value of the ‘conceive, support, kill, and harvest methodology’. Individual human life, prior to being born, is deemed ‘not yet a complete human being’ on our familiar darkened pro-choice plateau, thus to conceive individual human life, support that life, kill that life, and harvest from these ‘not yet complete human things’ is not defined as cannibalism. If these conceived individuals were admitted to be full human beings, would we still embrace the cannibalistic exploitation due to the utilitarian value of their individual designer body parts? The scientist of my cousin’s query most certainly would and my cousin would, because darkness this far down the slippery slope, this far down inside the funnel of dehumanization, is so great.

The pre-born are less human than the born? … Yes, when you strip away the rhetorical gamesmanship, the obfuscatory verbiage, that is what the arguments descend to, that is the dimness of our modern world. That is the plateau to which we’ve descended, from the seemingly innocent stage of artificial insemination then in vitro fertilization as merely medical assistance to natural conception. Touted as a boon to infertile couples, the in vitro fertilization process manipulated sex cells in a lab environment, conceived multiple embryos to be implanted in a woman’s uterus, stored excess embryos … and the process redefined the earliest age of an individual’s lifetime as but one stage ‘in a process that eventually becomes a human being’. So, where was the error in reasoning first made?

Sex cells are sub-units of organs; organs are sub-units of organisms; embryos are whole organisms. That was so quick, allow me to reiterate: cells are sub-units of organs, organs are sub-units of organisms; an individual human being is an organism; a kidney, for instance, is an organ of an organism.

In vitro fertilization manipulates, first, sex cells … sub-units of sex organs, organs of the parents. But if successful, in vitro fertilization conceives a whole, new organism … not just an organ, the whole organism! As the embryo grows, with the cell total climbing from one, to two, to three, to five, etc., the early cells are totipotent or pluripotent--less differentiated into the individual organs of the organism--thus the early cells are the organs of the individual begun with ‘petri dish’ conception, the assertions of Senator Orrin Hatch notwithstanding. [Senator Hatch claimed that conception doesn’t happen in a petri dish, possibly because Senator Hatch is pushing a bill that would allow therapeutic cloning, but not ‘reproductive cloning’. Senator Hatch has already decided that what is conceived in a petri dish and not allowed to live long enough to be born is not an individual human being, thus these ‘less than human’ beings will be fair game for killing and harvesting … fair game for his ‘to be protected’ form of cannibalism! Orrin Hatch’s reasoning has faltered at the difference between organs and whole organisms, thus he deems an embryo as no more than a non-differentiated organ that will ‘someday’ become an organism. And he’s patently and completely wrong!]

Whether in a dish or a human host, the embryo is an individual human being alive at the earliest age along the continuum we call a human lifetime. That fact is what was passed over so quickly when the debate over in vitro fertilization was squelched. That is the tiny error so grossly exploited to toss America down the slippery slope.

Now, after gradual descent (artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, amniocentesis, etc.) and later steep descent (abortion on demand, fetal tissue harvesting, partial birth abortion), we have arrived at a descended-to plateau beyond which is cannibalism, conceiving then killing individual human beings because their designer body parts at an embryonic age are of utilitarian value, of more utilitarian value than their unalienable right to life. Can ‘reasonable people’ agree to disagree on cannibalism, to allow the cannibalism to continue? May God have mercy upon America if such is reasonable at this stage in our nation’s life.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Announcements; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: abortion; cloning; invitro; life
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To: RLK
Careful lest you create a society where nobody's life is worth a disposable damn.

In a nutshell, you just described the Libertarian Party platform.

Funny how the anti-government crowd don't see humans as being worth a damn until the big, bad government issues them a birth certificate, isn't it...

21 posted on 05/12/2003 9:08:25 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: Torie
The question is the initial paragraph holds regardless of the technical definition of cannibalism.
22 posted on 05/12/2003 9:09:24 PM PDT by RLK
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To: Hank Kerchief
It is amazing that those who makes such claims are depending on the testimony of science, the very same science that says, people begin when they are born.

Sorry, Harry Browne isn't a scientist.

23 posted on 05/12/2003 9:09:25 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: Torie
cannibalize \ka-ne-be-lz\ vb -ized; -izing 1 : to take usable parts from (as an inoperative machine) to construct or repair another machine 2 : to practice cannibalism ... {To repair the 'human machine' with therapeutic cloning.)
(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
24 posted on 05/12/2003 9:11:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: Torie
It won't persuade anyone that is not already persuaded.

IOW, it won't persuade Torie. So what?

25 posted on 05/12/2003 9:11:22 PM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: MHGinTN; Torie
Is therapeutic cloning a form of cannibalism?

Is the therapeutically cloned thingy genetically identifiable as human?

26 posted on 05/12/2003 9:11:52 PM PDT by Lester Moore
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To: WarSlut
In a nutshell, you just described the Libertarian Party platform.

-----------------------

In a nutshell that is one of the aspects of the Libertarian party that worrys me.

As a corallary, we are becoming a society of disposable babies, disposable adults, and disposable old people --all without introspection.

27 posted on 05/12/2003 9:13:48 PM PDT by RLK
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To: MHGinTN
Very nice. The pro-aborts can't even win the semantics war.

Excellent essay, BTW.
28 posted on 05/12/2003 9:15:29 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: RLK
Nope reasonably people can most certainly disagree about the abortion issue, and do. It all depends on what stage of "life" one things legal protections should kick in. And that comes from a priori assumptions by and large, although as science reveals what a fetus is doing and when, some folks might change their views. I think the screed is ludicrous frankly, just ludicrous. I think for those with an open mind on the issue, it will hurt the pro life cause. JMO, and I am sure you disagree. And that's fine.
29 posted on 05/12/2003 9:18:38 PM PDT by Torie
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To: Hank Kerchief
Hank, I've heard this too many times before. The government forbids you to ingest cocaine. Does that mean that it's likely to turn around and force you to ingest cocaine?

Women are in danger of forced abortions in China, where they are allowed to choose them, but not in Ireland where they are not. There are plenty of young girls in this country forced to have abortions by their parents, and it's easier because it is legal.

A society will not make anything compulsory unless it first makes it a good. And abortion is a now a good in this country.

Mrs VS

PS Do you really think a fetal human being, growing, taking in oxygen and nutrition and synthesizing molecules and growing and moving and reacting to stimuli and excreting waste and even learning in a simple way, is not alive in the scientific sense? What on earth is your scientific definition of life? Birth to death is a social definition.

30 posted on 05/12/2003 9:18:41 PM PDT by VeritatisSplendor
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To: RLK
In a nutshell that is one of the aspects of the Libertarian party that worrys me.

How strange that the Libertarians' utter lack of a soul would trouble you. < /sarcasm>

31 posted on 05/12/2003 9:18:50 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: All
One book very much related to how the pro-aborts manipulate words to cover their lies is Dehumanizing The Vulnerable—When Word Games Take Lives. (Click on “abortion: books” then scroll.)

“…this hard hitting study shows how dehumanizing language was and is being used to justify violent acts against vulnerable people, including the unborn,…”

32 posted on 05/12/2003 9:20:41 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (“My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.” Hosea 4:6)
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To: WarSlut
Funny how the anti-government crowd don't see humans as being worth a damn until the big, bad government issues them a birth certificate, isn't it...

Actually the pro abortion 'anti-government crowd' could care less about birth certificate, they simply believe you don't have rights until you are 'out' on your own. Not all libertarians are pro abortion, I for one am not.

33 posted on 05/12/2003 9:21:01 PM PDT by rb22982
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To: WarSlut
"the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent children"

Baby, fetus and child are three phases of life.

34 posted on 05/12/2003 9:25:41 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: WarSlut
How strange that the Libertarians' utter lack of a soul would trouble you. < /sarcasm>

------------------

It probably is to many people as I have no religious interests. However, what I'm seeing is progressively barbarous and calloused society that I would not care to live in.

35 posted on 05/12/2003 9:25:45 PM PDT by RLK
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To: rb22982
Not all libertarians are pro abortion, I for one am not.

But surely you know that most are. If you're one of the excpetions, you can exclude yourself from my generalizations.

The "out on your own" argument -- or the "Viability" angle -- doesn't wash. A newborn infant is no less dependant on his/her mother than an unborn child. Neither can survive on its own.

Just for kicks, I'd like to see the pro-aborts take that position to its logical conclusion, and argue that abortion should be safe and legal until the third year of life. See how the "soccer moms" react to that one.

36 posted on 05/12/2003 9:30:33 PM PDT by WarSlut (Boycott Disney)
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To: VeritatisSplendor
What on earth is your scientific definition of life? Birth to death is a social definition.

A practical one could be when a life is viable outside the womb, since nature aborts (a miscarriage) there is a period of potential for life around 7 months. However abortions at this stage are so disgusting that it's hard to sympathise with so called helpless women who insist it is there right to do so.

As long as there is unwanted fertilization some kind of birth control is not only practical, but desireable.

The problem continues to be that the unborn have no political authority and a acceptable definition of what a person is remains ellisive: Obviously a blastula of cells is not a person.
37 posted on 05/12/2003 9:33:06 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: WarSlut
My older brother favors 9 months after birth, as I guess it has some sort of symmetry. He euphemistically calls it the "free return" policy. I think he might be serious. I chose not to get in the mud with him. He's my brother after all, and is very good to our mother, very good.
38 posted on 05/12/2003 9:33:27 PM PDT by Torie
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To: WarSlut
But surely you know that most are. If you're one of the excpetions, you can exclude yourself from my generalizations.

Well if you include only LP members, then you are probably right. If you include all libertarians and libertarian-leaning though, I think its more 50/50, and the large majority of my libertarian friends from HS, College and work are pro life, and registered Republican

The "out on your own" argument -- or the "Viability" angle -- doesn't wash. A newborn infant is no less dependant on his/her mother than an unborn child. Neither can survive on its own.

I agree with you, my point was they dont give a rats about gov't birth certs.

Just for kicks, I'd like to see the pro-aborts take that position to its logical conclusion, and argue that abortion should be safe and legal until the third year of life. See how the "soccer moms" react to that one.

I know a couple people from college who argue that, except not for quite that long.

39 posted on 05/12/2003 9:34:03 PM PDT by rb22982
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To: ffusco
Embryologists define an individual human lifetime as beginning at conception and existing along an unbroken continuum (if remaining alive once conceived, wherever conceived) hallmarked by changes in form and function (like embryo age, fetal age, and puberty age).

To an Embryologist, the first cell division of the conceptus is the first evidence of an individual human being expressing its unique life along a lifetime continuum. They are so certain of this individuality that they have devised all sorts of tests done on an embryo to discern whether the individual has Downs or anemia, or other disease. Were the tests not being done on a specific indivisual human being at their embryo age, the results of the tests could not be accepted as valid for the same individual forty weeks later.

40 posted on 05/12/2003 9:36:15 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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