FBI might drain Md. pond (it's now a tub with holes)

Baltimore Sun ^ | 5/12/03 | Scott Shane

[TrebleRebel]

FBI might drain Md. pond as part of its anthrax probe Spores reportedly found during Dec., Jan. searches of waters near Frederick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Scott Shane Sun Staff Originally published May 12, 2003

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In addition, The Washington Post, citing anonymous sources, reported yesterday that divers retrieved a "clear box" with holes that could accommodate protective biological safety gloves, as well as vials wrapped in plastic.

Scientists working with dangerous microbes often use a "glove box," a sealed container made of glass or clear plastic with glove ports fixed in place to allow the researcher to manipulate equipment without being directly exposed to the germs. Such equipment ranges from laboratory-size units of the kind used at the Army's biodefense center at Fort Detrick in Frederick to small, inexpensive "glove bags" made of flexible plastic that can be disposed of after a single use.

One person who has heard a description of the box allegedly found in the pond said last night that it was not a commercially manufactured glove box or glove bag, but rather a plastic tub with two holes in it. The source, who has spoken to FBI officials, said some investigators believe it might have been part of jury-rigged equipment used to load the anthrax spores into the envelopes later sent to two U.S. senators and several media organizations. ------------------------

[TrebleRebel]

Yesterday it was a glove box. Today it's a tub with holes. An old tub used by children to make a raft perhaps - with some sludge trapped inside that contained anthrax spores - to be expected in any soil sample with a highly sensitive test.

Talk about fitting the crime to the person. They even worked in that the perp had to go into the water to transfer the anthrax to the envelopes. I can just imagine the prosecutor in court to their expert witness "So Dr. Rosenberg, in your opinion this bathtub with the holes could have been used by an expert diver to underwater to transfer anthrax to envelopes, is that correct?"

Then, during cross-examination "Dr. Hatfill - you're an accomplished diver, is that correct? - No further questions your honour".

[TrebleRebel]

ping

[Lee'sGhost]

There are "tubs," and then there are "bath tubs." The article did not say bath tub.

[TrebleRebel]

ping

[templar]

It could also be an old sandblasting box (home made or commercially made) that was disposed of in the pond or washed into the pond during a rain from elsewhere. Ponds tend to collect a lot of garbage, and the article suggests that a lot of other stuff was removed from the pond. I wouldn't make any connection to the anthrax attack yet.

[Sacajaweau]

Anyone who knew they were handling anthrax surely had the vaccine OR if they didn't, wound up on antibiotics or died....

The way the letters were folded suggests a SYRINGE type insertion of the anthrax into the letters. But this could have been done in the woods, were any residue would quickly disperse.

It's still the refining process that gets me because it likely took many attempts to refine it to their specs. An Arab student who studied here briefly and who got the basics still comes to mind....Just like the pilots using our training schools. Saddam has the Chemical forte and Usama has the Structural forte. Patience....We have Ms. Anthrax. Saddam himself knew @#$% about Anthrax.

I wonder if there were any holes in the letters or envelopes which is why they sealed the edges which are not necessarily the weakest part of an envelope. (There's just a lot that they're not telling us.)

[ravingnutter]

The correct term is an "isolation glove box". We are not talking bathtubs here...

[harpseal]

I am really sick of seeing Hatfillaccused without evidence. I suggest the FBI either charge him or start looking at alternatives. as directly as they are studying Hatfill. From what they have released so far it does not appear that there is any real evidnece against him.

[WL-law]

Scientists at the Army's Dugway Proving Ground in Utah have tried to reproduce the anthrax powder in the letters, concluding that it could have been made in a modest home laboratory with tabletop equipment.

The statement above continues to puzzle me. We have heard, variously, that the Daschle letter anthrax was highly refined in a sophisticated centrifuge with specific additives that 'aerosolized' the anthrax, and yet there have been persistent stories that this was 'homegrown' anthrax.

My theory, which I've stated previously on FR threads, is that the vial passed to 9-11 hijacker Atta by the Iraqi agent in Prague contained the sophisticated anthrax. The hijackers were trained to use it to grow bigger batches, which would by necessity not have the additive or the centrifuged refineent.

Therefore you would have TWO different sample types, since they used the pure batch to send to Daschle.

This would also explain the evidence that the hijackers had rashes and skin conditions consistent with anthrax exposure, which evidence had emerged after 9-11 from 2 independent sources.

[TrebleRebel]

Er, well that's just it. Yesterday it was being reported they'd found something similar to what you link to - a commercial product. Today the Baltimore Sun is now reporting that it wasn't a commercial product at all - it was just a tub with holes. How you interpret a tub with holes is only a limit of your imagination.

Did the holes have flanges on them to accomadate gloves? Did the "tub" contain ports for sample transfer? Is this whole tub just some insane theory of the FBIs? Did they find an old tub with holes and suddenly they've turned it into a mini-bioweapons lab? We'd have to see the tub in order to give a valid critical assessment - in order to deduce if it could have ANY utility under ANY circumstances to do the job.

[Quilla]

I agree with your theory. I read about the Florida doctor or pharmacist who treated/saw the rash on Atta's hands. (Forgive my vagueness, it has been a while.) Could you enlighten me on the second source you mentioned? Also, has the FBI suggested a motive for Hatfield with respect to the anthrax mailings? Thanks.

[WL-law]

I read about the Florida doctor or pharmacist who treated/saw the rash on Atta's hands.

Well, actually, your recall has merged elements of both sources. There is a pharmacist who was approached by one of the hijackers seeking medicine, a week or so prior to 9-11. There was also a doctor who was visited by another of the hijackers, and the doctor observed unusual symptoms that, once the anthrax attacks occurred, he realized were consistent with anthrax exposure.

[freeperfromnj]

wonder if there were any holes in the letters or envelopes

One report suggests that there were slits in the envelopes through which a hypodermic needle could have been inserted.

[WL-law]

Did the holes have flanges on them to accomadate gloves? Did the "tub" contain ports for sample transfer? Is this whole tub just some insane theory of the FBIs? Did they find an old tub with holes and suddenly they've turned it into a mini-bioweapons lab? We'd have to see the tub in order to give a valid critical assessment - in order to deduce if it could have ANY utility under ANY circumstances to do the job.

And, if someone were trying to set up Hatfill, they could have easily planted that evidence long after 9-11, then phoned in a 'tip' to the FBI.

[Sacajaweau]

Close...but I think that either

1. the Anthrax came into the USA in syringes, ready for insertion into the envelopes OR

2. there was an Arab Student with his own little lab someplace here in the US, maybe out west like the unabomber. One of the big fires out west in 2001 got rid of the lab and any traces of the anthrax.

I still think there were 3 or 4 people involved in the whole scenario. This is not as simplistic as the unabomber.

Did the Hijackers have contact with the anthrax?? ATTA may even have had some on his person when they hit the towers. It would have burned up and left no trace. I think Atta was the only hijacker who knew about the anthrax and dead men tell no tales. But then there is Moussaoui. He was doing lousey on his "big jet" lessons but was certainly capable of flying a crop duster. Patience.

[palmer]

There's some problems with your theory. First it relies on an unsubstantiated report of Atta and Ani meeting in Prague. There is no evidence for that meeting, yet evidence must exist since Czech intel didn't know who Atta was at the time of the meeting. Second, the spores sent through the mail had to be processed with a centrifuge or similar device after being grown from bacteria. The bacteria do not cause infection, only the spores. Third, the additive (bentonite) is not rare, it's $7 for a 50 pound bag.

[The Great Satan]

What we are talking about here is establishing deniability. We saw this with the faux "decapitation strikes" on Saddam Hussein during the recent dust-up in Iraq. The purpose of releasing this glove box story now is to plant the notion that we "have our man" -- and it's not Saddam Hussein. That probably means that we are going to be learning about the fate of Saddam Hussein in the not-too-distant future, and it's going to look awfully like he made a deal with somebody -- perhaps the same person who brokered our deal with Aziz. The purpose of the deniability is to provide an excuse for the fact that we haven't arrested our man, and aren't going to arrest our man, or even empanel a grand jury assembled from randomly-selected members of the public, any time soon.

If you have been following this case, then you know that the discovery of a makeshift glove box, anthrax spores and vials "wrapped in plastic" in a pond in a search ostensibly inspired by a scene in Hatfill's unpublished bioterrorism novel is incredibly incriminating. If taken at face value, I'd say, skip the trial -- let's go straight to the execution. This great discovery is supposed to have happened four months ago. And yet, no charges, no grand jury. What does that suggest to you about the veracity of this story? I suggest that it's all about as veracious as the story that a CIA operative "earprinted" Saddam Hussein entering a bunker on March 20, and spied him being med-evaced from the scene with an oxygen mask over his face after the US rained forty cruise missiles down on the bunker a few hours later. In other words, it's a complete fabrication -- window dressing to avoid the impression that Saddam Hussein whacked the United States and got off with his life by virtue of his threat to use WMD on the American public.

The FBI has been criticized by some conservative commentators for seeming to ignore the possibility that foreign terrorists or Iraq might have been responsible for the anthrax mailings. Some suggested the case might be solved by the discovery of biological weapons facilities in Iraq, but little evidence of recent Iraqi bioweapons activity has turned up.

The purpose of Amerithrax is to convince us that the origin of those anthrax threats has been a big mystery to the United States. In fact, it never was a mystery. At the highest level, we always understood perfectly well that those threats came from the state which attacked us using terrorist proxies on September 11, 2001. See Woodward, Bush at War, p. 248, for the real story.

[John Beresford Tipton]

"And, if someone were trying to set up Hatfill, they could have easily planted that evidence long after 9- 11, then phoned in a 'tip' to the FBI."

And quite possibly not had to dial 9 for an outside line.

[ImpotentRage]

I agree. The FBI has destroyed Hatfill's life with innuendos and whispers. So far they have not come up with any evidence and, therefore continue to grasp for anything that will support their conclusion in order to avoid another department embarrassment. Unless they come up with conclusive proof, what they have done to Hatfill is criminal - and chilling.
This latest stretch about working with a powder under water is weird. (Or am I misunderstanding something here?)

[aristeides]

I thought it was significant that yesterday's Washington Post article did not call the box a "glove box," but only strangely implied that it was.