Posted on 05/08/2003 9:44:29 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
I think our awareness of our souls existence leads us to awareness of God's existence. It is in truth true whether we accept it or not. But it's there waiting for us to work it.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote. If a soul can inhabit a gross material body, the body can become the material of the soul. It's all the same universe, inward and outward. 
We clearly agree on the power of love to cast out fear!
I should have explained my statement better. To sum it up, I am saying that God is the one who makes the marriage. He was marrying couples long before there were any laws, Jewish priests, Catholic priests, Baptist preachers or civil authorities.
If the marriage is of God, the parties know it and would not deign to break it. If the marriage is of man, IMHO FWIW, it isn’t worth the paper it is written on and ought be dissolved (in favor of submitting to His will instead of self-will.)
No, thank you fair lady. Uhoh. I'm starting to learn something about myself here in regards to time and truth. Me a cynic? Could I be so bold as to offer you a hug also?
Agreed. And I'm sorry I could have explained mine better also. When I spoke, "committing to her for life , I was speaking of man law (paper) marriage. The depth of my commitment to her, I already knew. Love.
Concerning Adam and Eve, you said:
The temptation may have been part of communicating His will to Adam and Eve (obedience doesn’t exist without willfulness) - but in no way do I conclude that He is pleased they disobeyed or that it was His plan from the beginning that they should disobey so that He could sentence them to mortality, etc. To the contrary, Adam and Eve were eternal beings in the paradise garden of Eden. They were outside of space/time and thus not a point on a timeline for such planning or predestination.
Your questions about messenger and message are answered in the Word. Christ is the Word made flesh. And in addition to the Word, He has given us the Holy Spirit to learn:
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. – John 14:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. – John 15:26-27
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: - John 16:7-8
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents. And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 25:14-30
You asked about the term Ayn Sof - it is the Kabbalist description and equation, for God, at the beginning:
Before meeting the text we must throw some light on AynSof (Aleph-Yod-Noun-Sammekh-Waw-Phay) and Aur Aëlion. Addressing itself to cabalists, The Sepher Yetsira (Yetzirah) leaves out the equations of pre-structured energy known to them, but which do not enter the sphere of Yotser, or formation. As it is our intention to explain the cabalistic mentality to the general public, the equations must be examined before going on to a translation that would otherwise be lacking in its essential basis.
The ten Sephirot are transformers of energy, breaking it down until it becomes completely materialised. As a preliminary to this structuring of energy, the Qabala recognises two double equations of infinite energy: Ayn-Sof and Aur-Aëlion. In Hebrew Ayn-Sof means "without end," or "infinite," and Aur-Aëlion means "light," the highest or uplifted state of mind.
Read according to the code, the two double equations disclose the fundamental postulates of the Qabala, and contain an epitome of the whole.
Ayn-Sof. Ayn: Aleph-Yod-Noun (1.10.700) is a negation in Hebrew: "There is not." Strangely, this equation, on the contrary, expresses the whole, because it consists of Aleph and Yod, which are intemporal energy and its temporal projection: that is to say, the two partners in this interplay of cosmic life, death and existence. However, it is understandable why, due to the sense-based origin of the vulgate, Ayn is a negation. Noun final (700) which defines the stake of the cosmic part as being the Principle of Indetermination is an irresoluteness, an openness to all possibilities, to all that can come about unforeseen, beyond thought, from the not yet created: that is to say, to all that is still non-existent. This extraordinary abundance of freedom is a whirlpool of nothingness for the psyche (which feels in its element only through the familiar or the past). Ayn originates the metaphysical: "God created the world ex nihilo."
Read in full, Aleph (Aleph-Lammed-Phay: 1.30.80), Yod (Yod-Waw-Dallet: 10.6.4) and Noun (Noun-Noun: 50.700) show that the action of Aleph is to confer an organic movement (30) upon undifferentiated energy (80); that existence expressed by Yod is a fertilising (6) of opposing life (4); and that the life-in-existence of Noun (50) results in the freedom of the indeterminate (700).
Sof (Sammekh-Waw-Phay: 60.6.80) repeats and completes Ayn by the introduction of Sammekh (60) which, according to the code, is centripetal, fertilising energy. Sof is a double energy: centripetal by Sammekh and centrifugal by Waw (which evolve into female and male). These two contrary energies highlight the Phay (80) which was discovered in 4yn only when opening out Aleph (Aleph-Lammed-Phay). In short, Ayn is an anatomical equation which lays down the three elements of prime importance in this mode of thinking - Aleph-Yod-Noun final. Sof is a biological equation expressing the setting in motion of differentiated energy, Phay (80) , by two thrusts. One of them, Sammekh, picks up energy in the cellular centre, and the other, Waw, emanates from the centre and projects itself to the outside.
IMHO, the Hebrew language is engaging all on its own. I probably am drawn to it because it has an almost numeric quality. And I agree with you on the beauty of the Greek language. Sigh... I'm not fluent at either one, just struggle one word at a time to uncover meaning.
Actually, these folks remind one of Plato's "Philosopher Kings," who consider most people to be of the "bronze" variety. The "silver" would probably be counted among the various activists and lawyers who push these things through the courts and legislatures....
Interestingly, Plato realized that his suggested order would have to be based on the "Noble Lie" that the gods have anointed individuals into the various classes of society. The point of it was to convince people to accept their place as a divine assignment. This is basically identical to the "poltically useful" ideas you've described.
This takes us back to the thread from which this one sprouted, concerning Rand's objectivist claims. Those, too, depend on a noble lie, to the effect that Rand's "highest moral goals" are truly objective, and as such we must follow them. (Of course they're not objective at all -- but hey, she had to start someplace, right?)
Thanks for your very thoughtful answers and info. (BTW, maybe we can start a thread some time on the many kinds and levels of traits such as "intelligence," etc.)
You have a way of proving the expansion of the universe. ;-) I'm guilty of that too -- but you tend to be more kind to be "explicative." I may not be able to do your reply justice for a day or so (presuming I can do it justice).
Unspun, I awoke this morning feeling uneasy about my post to you last night. I’m concerned I may have come across as snippy and if I did, please accept my apology – that was not my intent. Truly, I should never attempt a reply to something that important and penetrating (your questions were superb) – without some shut-eye first.
I’m not sure what you mean by: You have a way of proving the expansion of the universe. Did you want me to post something to support that?
A new thread on traits such as “intelligence” is a good idea. You might want to see if Freeper cornelis, betty boop, Phaedrus or logos would have something handy to initiate such a discussion.
You know, I almost launched into exactly the same discussion yesterday.
This (and also BB's and my discussion about Judas) is a great example having a common moral baseline (the Bible). The existence of such an agreed-upon foundation has enormous and far-reaching consequences -- such as, for example, enabling the Constitutional system we now enjoy (cf. John Adams' comment about it being "wholly inadequate" for any but a moral and religious people).
The libertarians, with their theories of a "moral marketplace," never seem willing to admit that one cannot build anything until the foundation is complete -- something that the very nature of the "moral marketplace" cannot permit. It's not that libertarians (and objectivists) don't realize this: they're more than willing to tell us what they think the foundation should be. Some are even willing to lie about the foundation being "objective." But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and any discussion of prostitution or pornography will quickly reveal their ideas to be based on the shifting sands of the "moral marketplace."
There is also the simple matter of trust -- we can trust that others will respond in a manner that is essentially consistent with our own moral outlook. This, more than anything else, is the real precondition for limited government, good education, or a healthy church. The libertarian or objectivist view of "self-interest" clearly does not foster such trust.
So what does this have to do with a discussion of the soul? Pretty much everything, IMHO -- it all depends on how we see ourselves in relation to God.
This thread is an extension of the very issues you raise, i.e. governance and the soul. It is important, it is more than important, it is vital.
Sure.... :^) Gladly! Hugs to you, Kudsman.
LOL, WT!!! WELL SAID! (Hope you're right!)
You said of the macroevolutionists, "If they can't walk around the woods and know there is God, they have battened down all hatches." Well, I think that's precisely what they have done. They want to live in their "doctrine," not in the world. Somehow I sense they fear the world, and therefore try to "tame it" by cramming it into doctrinal form -- into a "second reality" designed to eclipse and supplant the First Reality of the natural world, together with its divine ground. As for me, I can't walk in the woods without feeling that somehow, I am in a holy place.
Well and truly said, r9etb. Thank you so much for writing.
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