Evolution vs. Creation Debate in Tucson, Arizona May 10

Calvery Chapel Tucson and Fellowship of Christian Athletes ^ | May 10, 2003 | Fellowship of Christian Athletes

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Saturday May 10, 2003

All Saturday meetings except the debate will be held at Calvary Tucson’s East Campus 8725 E. Speedway Blvd.

9:00 AM “Origins of Life and the Universe” . . . . .Hank Giesecke

10:00 AM “Fifty Facts Why Evolution Doesn’t Work” . . . .Russell Miller

11:00 AM Lunch

1:00 PM “Age of the Earth, and Intelligent Design” . . . .Hank Hiesecke

2:00 PM “Data from Mt. Saint Helens” . . . . .Russell Miller

3:00 PM Break

4:30 PM Dinner available at U of A’s McKale Center

6:00 PM Debate at University of Arizona McKale Center “Alternative World Views: Evolution and Creation”
Dr. Duane Gish and Professor Peter Sherman

Sunday May 11, 2003
Calvary Tucson East Campus
8:00 and 10:20 AM “Take Creation Captive”.......Hank Giesecke

Calvary Tucson West Campus
9:10 and 11:30 AM “Creation or Chaos”......Dr. John Meyer

Calvary Tucson East Campus
6:00 PM “Why 600 Scientists Reject Evolution” ......Dr. John Meyer

[Stop Legal Plunder]

The lady also did not claim that all who believe in evolution are atheists.

She did a good enough job of suggesting it. "I do believe in recognizing it for what it is, which is naturalistic (i.e. God free).".

Not at all. Read it again. She said evolution is naturalistic. That doesn't mean that all who believe in evolution are naturalists. The only way that would be true is if everyone always believed in a logically consistent manner. Which of course we don't

Some people are taking the discussion in this thread too personally. Let's return the focus to evolution, not evolutionists.

[Aric2000]

If I have EVER claimed I was an atheist, it was to upset some holier then thou, bible thumping, arrogant, fundamentalist, which I like to do on occasion.

No, I am not an atheist, and the "Name" of my god? Why would I name my god, my god is not a pet to be named like one. My god does not have a collar, to be bound in some way shape or form with some silly name.

Get real there AndrewC, and what my religion is, is NONE of your business either, because I couldn't care less if you believe like I do. I am not arrogant enough to think that my religion has ALL the answers for YOU, such as some other religions I could name. It just has the answers to the questions that I ask, that is why it is MY religion and not necessarily yours.

[Aric2000]

I never claimed to possess my god, it is my god in the sense that I believe in that god, but to say that I claim possession like some toy is insane.

Quit playing semantic games, you saw what I meant, and know what I meant.

So quit with the stupid crap and get on with the real discussion.

[Aric2000]

Give me a fricking break, here you are playing semantic games again.

She said what said, and meant it.

Her basic premise was "If you believe in evolution, then you are an atheist."

Again, quit with the games and let's get on with the discussion, you know what she meant as well as we do.

[AndrewC]

Get real there AndrewC, and what my religion is, is NONE of your business either,

Hey, you're the one making the claims for your god here. I just want to know his/her/its name, especially since this awesome figure only merits a lowercase reference.

[Aric2000]

Whatever Andrew, like I said, what I believe does not have your answers. It would have way too much PERSONAL responsiblity for your taste.

It is much easier to be a christian and be forgiven, then to believe the way I do, so I don't think it's for you.

also, the god I believe in, as to not upset mr. semantic there, is not an arrogant, spoiled, petulant child who needs sacrifices in order to love or forgive me. The god I believe in is just there, and really doesn't care if I capitalize a stupid word or not.

Yours might, but the one I believe in doesn't. Also the one I believe in does not have a book all about the rules, and a history of destroying every living thing out of anger.

I think that I have said enough, good luck at figuring it out, because you won't be able to.

Because you see, my religion is MY religion and NO ONE elses, there may be others that believe like I do, but NONE that believe EXACTLY as I do, and I am not arrogant enough to say that it has all of the answers for everyone. The only person it has all the answers for is ME.

Have fun, but you can't plop me in a nice little box like you can a Lutheran, or a fundamentalist, or a catholic, or a muslim, or a Pagan, etc etc ad nauseum.

[Con X-Poser]

<< If you are caught in the act of stealing from someone who is willing to use lethal force to protect their property, then you will die and thus not survive to reproduce. >>

Like I said, the thief has to be better armed than the property owner, which is the case in today's society.

<< The typical doom-and-gloom "wait and see" rantings that I've often seen proposed as 'coming soon to a future near you', but I've never seen any evidence that anyone is ready to line up for 'rapist rights' or 'pedophile rights'. >>

Here is a link giving enough evidence to choke a horse to back up that claim:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=age+of+consent+homosexual+acts

When I was a kid, people said the same things about homosexuality and abortion as you are saying about those things.

[Stop Legal Plunder]

...let's get on with the discussion...

In college I was an officer of a student group that arranged campus debates to contribute to vigorous intellectual discussions on campus. All was well until we tried to arrange a debate on evolution.

None of the science professors on campus would participate. Not one. They were all (as far as we could determine) evolutionists, but they weren't willing to defend their views on a level playing field in public. Even when we pointed out the importance of defending evolutionary "science" against the creationist "superstition" that a majority of Americans then (87% in 1991, according to Gallup) and now believe.

By asking professors at other colleges, we did eventually find someone willing to defend evolution in public. But he was slaughtered so thoroughly by the creationist from a Bible college that some students muttered the debate had been rigged. All we could do was explain that we had invited our own school's faculty to debate but that's they'd refused to. Even when invited to pick the format of their choice. What else could we do?

By the way, I attended an Ivy League school as an undergraduate. It says a lot to me that Ivy League professors, including Nobel laureates, are afraid to debate small town Bible college professors on a subject, real science, which you'd think the Ivy Leaguers should know a bit more about.

[AndrewC]

Have fun, but you can't plop me in a nice little box like you can a Lutheran, or a fundamentalist, or a catholic, or a muslim, or a Pagan, etc etc ad nauseum.

You have been the one putting people in boxes. My question arose, because I seem to remember that you indicated that you were an atheist(no god) in the past. It was contradictory, therefore, for you to claim belief in a god as a response to someone who did believe in a diety.

As to personal responsibility, I don't recall blaming anyone else for my actions. I don't even blame my parents. I don't blame anyone else when I run out of gas, but that does not stop me from asking for help and would not stop me from accepting free gas from a benevolent person.

I'm not a follower of Thor, Zeus, Hera, Siva, etc. but I do know their names and someone was nice enough to pass along their names. It just makes me wonder why you are so reluctant to describe your particular diety. However, that is your business, just don't expect your prior argument to be taken very seriously now.

[Aric2000]

Ask a scientist, and he or she will give you the same answer they gave me.

Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory, based on scientific evidence, facts, and logic.

You don't like that answer? Then go talk to your local creationist, and they will give you the answer that you seek.

[Stop Legal Plunder]

Have you checked your Freepmail recently? If not, please do. =)

[AndrewC]

Have you checked your Freepmail recently?

Yes, thank you. The postman returns.

[Ahban]

From his description, it sounds to me like he believes in "the force" or something like it.

[Aric2000]

Yes, Delta S does mean something, but not at all to what you are trying to apply it to.

http://members.aol.com/profchm/entropy.html

Second Law of Thermodynamics

According to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, isolated systems tend to proceed toward higher entropy. Of course we know that there are lots of systems where the entropy state is actually lower some time in the future compared to an initial entropy. How can that be? Does that suggest that the Second Law is being violated? Well, the key word in the above statement is the word "isolated". For example, if I left my desk alone as mountains of graded exams, homework, and other paperwork accumulated with time, and I made no effort to clean and organize my desk then the desk would become more cluttered as time progressed. The entropy state would soar. However, I do clean up and rearrange and organize items on my desk. I place papers in filing cabinets. In other words, I upset the natural order of things by affecting teh system from the outside. If the system was not affected externally then the Second Law would take its' toll. Systems are seldom isolated. However, you can impact a system which could cause the entropy to increase or decrease. This is called the Change in Entropy.

So therefore, since this is NOT an isolated system, Negative Delta S doesn't mean a thing. And has NO place in a debate on evolution.

Nice try though Andrew.

[AndrewC]

So therefore, since this is NOT an isolated system, Negative Delta S doesn't mean a thing. And has NO place in a debate on evolution.

Why don't you try to actually read the argument instead of jumping in to an abyss? Negative Delta S did apply to an isolated system when I said water vapor(high entropy) does not turn into liquid water(lower entropy) under the conditions I set forth.

[Aric2000]

You can think and do whatever you want.

I can play devils advocate and not have some deity pissed off at me, unlike you of course.

No, evolution is not an atheistic view, although there are atheists that understand and agree with evolution.

I will not say believe, because to understand and agree with evolution, does NOT take faith, just an open mind willing to look at the evidence at hand.

Religion on the other hand takes faith, creationism is faith based, because I must have faith that your god exists, and believe in the bible as some holy book written by man through the divine will of god.

Sorry, if I wrote a book today, and told you that it was divinely inspired by god, and therefore was to be taken on faith, you would laugh in my face. The people that wrote the books in the bible are all dead, at least you could look at me and see if I was crazy, but you haven't got a clue what those guys were like. That takes HUGE amounts of faith as far as I am concerned, HUGE amounts.

You may have faith that your creation myth is true fact, but you haven't got ONE fact, one fossil, one concrete piece of evidence, and you call evolutionists crazy?

Sorry, but in order to refute a scientific theory, you need a scientific theory, and creationism is NOT a scientific theory.

All you have is somebodies word that the bible is divinely inspired by god and is the truth, that's it, that's all.
And then try to use it to claim that creationism somehow is a competitor of evolution....

Damn.....

[gore3000]

They'll show up, because they are so arrogantly confident in their position.

I think you are wrong on that. Yes, the evolutionists are arrogant. However, arrogance is just a means of self-defence by those who cannot defend their positions. After 8 years of Clinton, Americans see through arrogance very clearly. They see that it is just a bluff, so it does not sell. The fact is that evolutionists are being forced to defend their position. They have been forced to it by scientific advances and by the mounting evidence which has been arrayed against it by the intelligent design community.

[ALS]

Here come the evoloonists to defend their little temple of wishes...

[ALS]

I'm still waiting for the evolooonists to crawl up out of their Campbell's Primordial Soup™ and join reality.

[AndrewC]

You can think and do whatever you want.

Thank you, I think I'll do that. Personal responsibility, you know.

Religion on the other hand takes faith,

WOW!! Did you think that up yourself? What a concept!

All you have is somebodies word that the bible is divinely inspired by god and is the truth,

Have you been keeping track of me? Because, if you have, you need a better gumshoe.