Thomas Sowell: Universal health care

Jewish World Review ^ | May 6, 2003 | Thomas Sowell

[SJackson]

Continued.....

Not all countries that tried socialized medicine went as far as the Soviet Union. But there has been a whole pattern of problems common to government-controlled medical care systems, whether in China, Britain, Canada or elsewhere. And none of the anti-profit zealots want to talk about any of those problems.

None of those who wants us to move in the direction of Canada on health care ever faces the question: Why do so many Canadians come to the United States for medical treatment and so few Americans go to Canada?

Could it be that we should look at what actually works, rather than what sounds good? Nor should we be overly impressed by words that sound bad, like "uninsured Americans." The bottom line is medical care, not insurance. People without insurance are treated at hospitals all across America every day.

Before we even consider throwing away what works in favor of something that has failed repeatedly, we need to stop reacting to words and start looking at facts. Socialism by any other name is still socialism -- whether it is advocated by shrill zealots like Kucinich or by other Democrats whose words are smoother.

[nicmarlo]

If there was one defining moment in the debates among an already crowded field of Democrats seeking their party's presidential nomination in 2004, it may well have been when Congressman Dennis Kucinich, pushing for government-provided health care, spoke with obvious disgust of the "profits" of the insurance companies and provoked a burst of spontaneous applause from like-minded members of the audience.

That's an understatement of Kucinich's expression.....I'd say he spoke of profits, it was with anger and hatred. Great article. Thanks for posting.

[Free the USA]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[freeper12]

>>Why do so many Canadians come to the United States for medical treatment and so few Americans go to Canada?


I'd be interested in what statistics you have to backup that statement...sounds good, but is it true(and I am not saying its not, just never seen any proof)? If you count the number of people in the US that buy prescriptions in canada, I bet more americans use the canadian system than the other way around...except perhaps for the wealthy canadians...how many canadians really can afford expensive medical care and the travel costs to come here and pay out of pocket?

[BillM]

The canadian system is a disaster. I lived here before medicare so can compare the new to the old. I have also lived and worked in the US. There is little comparison. Up here once you get a doctor you cannot change. If you find you do not like him/her, too bad!
Doctors used to be graduates of canadian and US medical schools. Today the majority of doctors come from third world nations.
Come on up and try it. The drugs are cheap because we make generics and rip off your patents. It's cheaper that way but there are few new drugs developed here.

[hobbes1]

Drugs are not the same class as medical care. CANADUH by law, PROSCRIBES the amount that drug companies profit from their goods. So what Happens ? The US Consumer pays overinflated prices here.....(Hence the rush over the border for those that can.)

Medical Services OTOH, are not manufactured goods to be exported. They Are SERVICES provided on a local (relatively) basis.

Can you see the Apples in the Basket of Oranges now?

[hobbes1]

P.S. The U.S. Government should close our market to any Drug Company that gouges Americans, by doing business in Canada.

[raybbr]

My sister-in-law sat next to an ex-practicing nurse from Canada on a plane. She was down-sized when the Canadian flubberment took over health care. Guess what her job is now?

She lives in Florida and for three months a year she goes to different hospitals around the U.S. verifying claims by Canadian citizens who come here on "vacation", are then stricken with some affliction and use our system for treatment. A claim is them filed with the Canadian flubberment and they reimburse the health care facility here.

She told my s-i-l that people up there use someone else's name to go to a doctor and get diagnosed. Since the wait is so long for non-emergent procedures they take this info with them on vacation. When they get here they get taken care of.

Want to here the best part. The ex-Canadian nurse still gets her full salary from before the down sizing.

Great system, eh?

[doc30]

Each province has its own health care system so when you reference details of Canadian socialized medicine, make sure you reference the province. The one big misconception about Canadian health care is prescription drugs. They are not covered by the system in Ontario. Unless you have third party insurance, you pay full retail on the price of drugs. The reason prescriptions are cheaper is that the government sets price caps. They don't allow patent rip offs and have a similar patent lifespan as drugs do in the U.S. Canada and Britain are unique in the industrialized world in that doctors work foir the state. It is against the law to operate outside (i.e. as a private physician) the system. No doctor can go into business for himself independent of the health care system.

I can offer you anecdotal proff since I am Canadian and lived in the Windsor area. People were dying on waiting lists for heart surgery (waiting times being 18 to 24 months) back in the early '90's. So people that needed surgery went to Detroit and had it paid for by the provincial health care system. Since so many people were electing this option, the provincial government, under Bob Rae and the NDP (extreme socialist party, far left of the Liberals) changed the system so that coverage would be for the max allowed under OHIP. THat maxiumum was about 25-30% of what the cost was outside Canada. So now only people with money could go to the U.S. and the average Canadian got stuck in the long waiting lists. There is a two-tier system in Canada: the government run system and the U.S. system for the wealthy.

[gridlock]

The US consumer must bear the development costs and overhead (profit) for every new drug that comes along. The folks in Canada are given a free ride, because the drug companies are limited to a small profit over the manufacturing costs.

Fortunately for the Canadians, the US drug market exists, so there is something to freeload off of. If the US institutes a Canadian-style system of drug price controls, where will we go for innovations and new drugs? Mexico?

Drug company profits are the engine behind an explosion of new drug therapies. Yes, the drugs are expensive. But they are cheap compared to the cost of hospitilization or illness and death that they prevent. Compare the cost of a maintenance prescription of Zocor to the cost and risk of a Cardiac Bypass operation. Sure it's a lot to pay for a little pill, but it is more expensive to live without the little pill.

[bonesmccoy]

Profit margins which kill Americans are not appropriate.

I challenge you to explain why an HMO needs to have protected profitability while doctors, nurses, and staff are consistently put into bankruptcy.

[freeper12]

>>I challenge you to explain why an HMO needs to have protected profitability while doctors, nurses, and staff are consistently put into bankruptcy

Good point, not to mention the patients who are driven into bankruptcy because they cannot afford the care they need...

[Ferret Fawcet]

anti- socialized medicine BUMP

[Alberta's Child]

If you count the number of people in the US that buy prescriptions in canada, I bet more americans use the canadian system than the other way around . . .

This isn't a valid comparison, so you can't include the people from the U.S. who buy prescriptions in Canada. These people are going to Canada to buy something that is identical to what they would buy in the U.S., but at a price that has been artificially reduced in Canada through government regulation.

When it comes to things that are truly different in health care, Canada doesn't come close to the U.S. If you go through any medical specialty that you can thing of (neurology, cardiology, orthopedics, etc.) and rank all of the hospitals in the world for each of them, I'll bet 95 of the top 100 hospitals for these specialties are in the U.S.

[Alberta's Child]

Fortunately for the Canadians, the US drug market exists, so there is something to freeload off of.

I can accept that arrangement. They get cheap drugs at our expense, and we get their best hockey players.

[liberallarry]

ping for later read.

Don't know about Canada...but my German and French friends have repeatedly told me that high-end medicine for the wealthy is much better in the U.S., but the situation is reversed for the average person.

Surprisingly, average people in small rural communities seem to have better care than poor big-city dwellers.

[gridlock]

They get cheap drugs at our expense, and we get their best hockey players.

Well, since they don't play pro hockey in Canada anymore, all those players have to work somewhere!

[arthurus]

I'd be interested in what statistics you have to backup that statement

Not prõf, but an indicatio, nevertheless. My town has historically bên a beach resort with a tremendous summer tourist season and economic depression for the rest of the year. When Canada cut off the last of private health care we suðenly got a winter season consisting mostly of Canadians coming to the coast. The ones I talked to and that my friends dealt with came here to get their major health needs taken care of along with a nice warm weather vacation. These visitors were notable for aðing nothing to the local economy outside of rõm and fõd and the local hospital entered a period of prosperity it had not before known. After a few years Canada disallowed insurance payments to foreign entities and the Canadian tourists declined radically in number but did not stop.

The visitation has been increasing steadily since and at least one couple says their visit is because they simply could not get things taken care of in Canada without waits that would preclude successful treatment of the problem. Getting that bypass now costs more than ever because they have to paythe government "insurance" and still have to travel and pay the uninsured rates for the treatment. Some have purchased American insurance using their winter aðresses and are paying two large insurance rates.

[freeper12]

>>my German and French friends have repeatedly told me that high-end medicine for the wealthy is much better in the U.S., but the situation is reversed for the average person.

I don't doubt that for a second.

[bonesmccoy]

There should be no cases of bankruptcy due to the cost of a physician's time.

In fact, I challenge you to cite references in this matter. The reason I know there are no such cases is that the patient has recourse (Medi-Care/AID).

The physician's offices have no such recourse and doctors are being consistently driven out of the market by the predatory practices of hospitals (which are in collusion with HMOs).

So, before you go trying to spin my statment, PROVE yours.

What patients have gone bankrupt from physician fees?