How another wartime congressman sided with an enemy dictator

Speech of Rep. Abraham Lincoln against the Mexican War and against Texas' territorial boundary of the Rio Grande, Congressional Globe, Thirtieth Congress, First Session, Appendix, pp. 93-95. Delivered to the U.S. House of Representatives, Jan 12, 1848

Some, if not all the gentlemen on, the other side of the House, who have addressed the committee within the last two days, have spoken rather complainingly, if I have rightly understood them, of the vote given a week or ten days ago, declaring that the war with Mexico was unnecessarily and unconstitutionally commenced by the President. I admit that such a vote should not be given, in mere party wantonness, and that the one given, is justly censurable, if it have no other, or better foundation. I am one of those who joined in that vote; and I did so under my best impression of the truth of the case. How I got this impression, and how it may possibly be removed, I will now try to show. When the war began, it way my opinion that all those who, because of knowing too little, or because of knowing too much, could not conscientiously approve the conduct of the President, in the beginning of it, should, nevertheless, as good citizens and patriots, remain silent on that point, at least till the war should be ended. Some leading democrats, including Ex President Van Buren, have taken this same view, as I understand them; and I adhered to it, and acted upon it, until since I took my seat here; and I think I should still adhere to it, were it not that the President and his friends will not allow it to be so. Besides the continual effort of the President to argue every silent vote given for supplies, into an endorsement of the justice and wisdom of his conduct---besides that singularly candid paragraph, in his late message in which he tells us that Congress, with great unanimity, only two in the Senate and fourteen in the House dissenting, had declared that, ``by the act of the Republic of Mexico, a state of war exists between that Government and the United States,'' when the same journals that informed him of this, also informed him, that when that declaration stood disconnected from the question of supplies, sixty-seven in the House, and not fourteen merely, voted against it---besides this open attempt to prove, by telling the truth, what he could not prove by telling the whole truth---demanding of all who will not submit to be misrepresented, in justice to themselves, to speak out---besides all this, one of my colleagues (Mr. Richardson) at a very early day in the session brought in a set of resolutions, expressly endorsing the original justice of the war on the part of the President. Upon these resolutions, when they shall be put on their passage I shall be compelled to vote; so that I can not be silent, if I would. Seeing this, I went about preparing myself to give the vote understandingly when it should come. I carefully examined the President's messages, to ascertain what he himself had said and proved upon the point. The result of this examination was to make the impression, that taking for true, all the President states as facts, he falls far short of proving his justification; and that the President would have gone farther with his proof, if it had not been for the small matter, that the truth would not permit him. Under the impression thus made, I gave the vote before mentioned. I propose now to give, concisely, the process of the examination I made, and how I reached the conclusion I did. The President, in his first war message of May 1846, declares that the soil was ours on which hostilities were commenced by Mexico; and he repeats that declaration, almost in the same language, in each successive annual message, thus showing that he esteems that point, a highly essential one. In the importance of that point, I entirely agree with the President. To my judgment, it is the very point, upon which he should be justified, or condemned. In his message of Decr. 1846, it seems to have occurred to him, as is certainly true, that title---ownership---to soil, or any thing else, is not a simple fact; but is a conclusion following one or more simple facts; and that it was incumbent upon him, to present the facts, from which he concluded, the soil was ours, on which the first blood of the war was shed.

Accordingly a little below the middle of page twelve in the message last referred to, he enters upon that task; forming an issue, and introducing testimony, extending the whole, to a little below the middle of page fourteen. Now I propose to try to show, that the whole of this,---issue and evidence---is, from beginning to end, the sheerest deception. The issue, as he presents it, is in these words ``But there are those who, conceding all this to be true, assume the ground that the true western boundary of Texas is the Nueces, instead of the Rio Grande; and that, therefore, in marching our army to the east bank of the latter river, we passed the Texan line, and invaded the teritory of Mexico.'' Now this issue, is made up of two affirmatives and no negative. The main deception of it is, that it assumes as true, that one river or the other is necessarily the boundary; and cheats the superficial thinker entirely out of the idea, that possibly the boundary is somewhere between the two, and not actually at either. A further deception is, that it will let in evidence, which a true issue would exclude. A true issue, made by the President, would be about as follows ``I say, the soil was ours, on which the first blood was shed; there are those who say it was not.''

I now proceed to examine the Presidents evidence, as applicable to such an issue. When that evidence is analized, it is all included in the following propositions:

1. That the Rio Grande was the Western boundary of Louisiana as we purchased it of France in 1803.

2. That the Republic of Texas always claimed the Rio Grande, as her Western boundary.

4. That Santa Anna, in his treaty with Texas, recognised the Rio Grande, as her boundary.

5. That Texas before, and the U. S. after, annexation had exercised jurisdiction beyond the Nueces---between the two rivers.

6. That our Congress, understood the boundary of Texas to extend beyond the Nueces.

His first item is, that the Rio Grande was the Western boundary of Louisiana, as we purchased it of France in 1803; and seeming to expect this to be disputed, he argues over the amount of nearly a page, to prove it true; at the end of which he lets us know, that by the treaty of 1819, we sold to Spain the whole country from the Rio Grande eastward, to the Sabine. Now, admitting for the present, that the Rio Grande, was the boundary of Louisiana, what, under heaven, had that to do with the present boundary between us and Mexico? How, Mr. Chairman, the line, that once divided your land from mine, can still be the boundary between us, after I have sold my land to you, is, to me, beyond all comprehension. And how any man, with an honest purpose only, of proving the truth, could ever have thought of introducing such a fact to prove such an issue, is equally incomprehensible. His next piece of evidence is that ``The Republic of Texas always claimed this river (Rio Grande) as her western boundary[.]'' That is not true, in fact. Texas has claimed it, but she has not always claimed it. There is, at least, one distinguished exception. Her state constitution,---the republic's most solemn, and well considered act---that which may, without impropriety, be called her last will and testament revoking all others---makes no such claim. But suppose she had always claimed it. Has not Mexico always claimed the contrary? so that there is but claim against claim, leaving nothing proved, until we get back of the claims, and find which has the better foundation. Though not in the order in which the President presents his evidence, I now consider that class of his statements, which are, in substance, nothing more than that Texas has, by various acts of her convention and congress, claimed the Rio Grande, as her boundary, on paper. I mean here what he says about the fixing of the Rio Grande as her boundary in her old constitution (not her state constitution) about forming congressional districts, counties &c &c. Now all of this is but naked claim; and what I have already said about claims is strictly applicable to this. If I should claim your land, by word of mouth, that certainly would not make it mine; and if I were to claim it by a deed which I had made myself, and with which, you had had nothing to do, the claim would be quite the same, in substance---or rather, in utter nothingness. I next consider the President's statement that Santa Anna in his treaty with Texas, recognised the Rio Grande, as the western boundary of Texas. Besides the position, so often taken that Santa Anna, while a prisoner of war---a captive---could not bind Mexico by a treaty, which I deem conclusive---besides this, I wish to say something in relation to this treaty, so called by the President, with Santa Anna. If any man would like to be amused by a sight of that little thing, which the President calls by that big name, he can have it, by turning to Niles' Register volume 50, page 336. And if any one should suppose that Niles' Register is a curious repository of so mighty a document, as a solemn treaty between nations, I can only say that I learned, to a tolerable degree [of] certainty, by enquiry at the State Department, that the President himself, never saw it any where else. By the way, I believe I should not err, if I were to declare, that during the first ten years of the existence of that document, it was never, by any body, called a treaty---that it was never so called, till the President, in his extremity, attempted, by so calling it, to wring something from it in justification of himself in connection with the Mexican war. It has none of the distinguishing features of a treaty. It does not call itself a treaty. Santa Anna does not therein, assume to bind Mexico; he assumes only to act as the President-Commander-in-chief of the Mexican Army and Navy; stipulates that the then present hostilities should cease, and that he would not himself take up arms, nor influence the Mexican people to take up arms, against Texas during the existence of the war of independence[.] He did not recognise the independence of Texas; he did not assume to put an end to the war; but clearly indicated his expectation of it's continuance; he did not say one word about boundary, and, most probably, never thought of it. It is stipulated therein that the Mexican forces should evacuate the teritory of Texas, passing to the other side of the Rio Grande; and in another article, it is stipulated that, to prevent collisions between the armies, the Texan army should not approach nearer than within five leagues---of what is not said---but clearly, from the object stated it is---of the Rio Grande. Now, if this is a treaty, recognising the Rio Grande, as the boundary of Texas, it contains the singular feauture [sic], of stipulating, that Texas shall not go within five leagues of her own boundary.

Next comes the evidence of Texas before annexation, and the United States, afterwards, exercising jurisdiction beyond the Nueces, and between the two rivers. This actual exercise of jurisdiction, is the very class or quality of evidence we want. It is excellent so far as it goes; but does it go far enough? He tells us it went beyond the Nueces; but he does not tell us it went to the Rio Grande. He tells us, jurisdiction was exercised between the two rivers, but he does not tell us it was exercised over all the teritory between them. Some simple minded people, think it is possible, to cross one river and go beyond it without going all the way to the next---that jurisdiction may be exercised between two rivers without covering all the country between them. I know a man, not very unlike myself, who exercises jurisdiction over a piece of land between the Wabash and the Mississippi; and yet so far is this from being all there is between those rivers, that it is just one hundred and fiftytwo feet long by fifty wide, and no part of it much within a hundred miles of either. He has a neighbour between him and the Mississippi,---that is, just across the street, in that direction---whom, I am sure, he could neither persuade nor force to give up his habitation; but which nevertheless, he could certainly annex, if it were to be done, by merely standing on his own side of the street and claiming it, or even, sitting down, and writing a deed for it.

But next the President tells us, the Congress of the United States understood the state of Texas they admitted into the union, to extend beyond the Nueces. Well, I suppose they did. I certainly so understood it. But how far beyond? That Congress did not understand it to extend clear to the Rio Grande, is quite certain by the fact of their joint resolutions, for admission, expressly leaving all questions of boundary to future adjustment. And it may be added, that Texas herself, is proved to have had the same understanding of it, that our Congress had, by the fact of the exact conformity of her new constitution, to those resolutions.

I am now through the whole of the President's evidence; and it is a singular fact, that if any one should declare the President sent the army into the midst of a settlement of Mexican people, who had never submited, by consent or by force, to the authority of Texas or of the United States, and that there, and thereby, the first blood of the war was shed, there is not one word in all the President has said, which would either admit or deny the declaration. This strange omission, it does seem to me, could not have occurred but by design. My way of living leads me to be about the courts of justice; and there, I have sometimes seen a good lawyer, struggling for his client's neck, in a desparate case, employing every artifice to work round, befog, and cover up, with many words, some point arising in the case, which he dared not admit, and yet could not deny. Party bias may help to make it appear so; but with all the allowance I can make for such bias, it still does appear to me, that just such, and from just such necessity, is the President's struggle in this case.

Some time after my colleague (Mr. Richardson) introduced the resolutions I have mentioned, I introduced a preamble, resolution, and interrogatories, intended to draw the President out, if possible, on this hitherto untrodden ground. To show their relevancy, I propose to state my understanding of the true rule for ascertaining the boundary between Texas and Mexico. It is, that wherever Texas was exercising jurisdiction, was hers; and wherever Mexico was exercising jurisdiction, was hers; and that whatever separated the actual exercise of jurisdiction of the one, from that of the other, was the true boundary between them. If, as is probably true, Texas was exercising jurisdiction along the western bank of the Nueces, and Mexico was exercising it along the eastern bank of the Rio Grande, then neither river was the boundary; but the uninhabited country between the two, was. The extent of our teritory in that region depended, not on any treaty-fixed boundary (for no treaty had attempted it) but on revolution. Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable,---a most sacred right---a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can, may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the teritory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement. Such minority, was precisely the case, of the tories of our own revolution. It is a quality of revolutions not to go by old lines, or old laws; but to break up both, and make new ones. As to the country now in question, we bought it of France in 1803, and sold it to Spain in 1819, according to the President's statements. After this, all Mexico, including Texas, revolutionized against Spain; and still later, Texas revolutionized against Mexico. In my view, just so far as she carried her revolution, by obtaining the actual, willing or unwilling, submission of the people, so far, the country was hers, and no farther. Now sir, for the purpose of obtaining the very best evidence, as to whether Texas had actually carried her revolution, to the place where the hostilities of the present war commenced, let the President answer the interrogatories, I proposed, as before mentioned, or some other similar ones. Let him answer, fully, fairly, and candidly. Let him answer with facts, and not with arguments. Let him remember he sits where Washington sat, and so remembering, let him answer, as Washington would answer. As a nation should not, and the Almighty will not, be evaded, so let him attempt no evasion---no equivocation. And if, so answering, he can show that the soil was ours, where the first blood of the war was shed---that it was not within an inhabited country, or, if within such, that the inhabitants had submitted themselves to the civil authority of Texas, or of the United States, and that the same is true of the site of Fort Brown, then I am with him for his justification. In that case I, shall be most happy to reverse the vote I gave the other day. I have a selfish motive for desiring that the President may do this. I expect to give some votes, in connection with the war, which, without his so doing, will be of doubtful propriety in my own judgment, but which will be free from the doubt if he does so. But if he can not, or will not do this---if on any pretence, or no pretence, he shall refuse or omit it, then I shall be fully convinced, of what I more than suspect already, that he is deeply conscious of being in the wrong---that he feels the blood of this war, like the blood of Abel, is crying to Heaven against him. That originally having some strong motive---what, I will not stop now to give my opinion concerning---to involve the two countries in a war, and trusting to escape scrutiny, by fixing the public gaze upon the exceeding brightness of military glory---that attractive rainbow, that rises in showers of blood---that serpent's eye, that charms to destroy---he plunged into it, and has swept, on and on, till, disappointed in his calculation of the ease with which Mexico might be subdued, he now finds himself, he knows not where. How like the half insane mumbling of a fever-dream, is the whole war part of his late message! At one time telling us that Mexico has nothing whatever, that we can get, but teritory; at another, showing us how we can support the war, by levying contributions on Mexico. At one time, urging the national honor, the security of the future, the prevention of foreign interference, and even, the good of Mexico herself, as among the objects of the war; at another, telling us, that ``to reject indemnity, by refusing to accept a cession of teritory, would be to abandon all our just demands, and to wage the war, bearing all it's expenses, without a purpose or definite object[.]'' So then, the national honor, security of the future, and every thing but teritorial indemnity, may be considered the no-purposes, and indefinite, objects of the war! But, having it now settled that teritorial indemnity is the only object, we are urged to seize, by legislation here, all that he was content to take, a few months ago, and the whole province of lower California to boot, and to still carry on the war---to take all we are fighting for, and still fight on. Again, the President is resolved, under all circumstances, to have full teritorial indemnity for the expenses of the war; but he forgets to tell us how we are to get the excess, after those expenses shall have surpassed the value of the whole of the Mexican teritory. So again, he insists that the separate national existence of Mexico, shall be maintained; but he does not tell us how this can be done, after we shall have taken all her teritory. Lest the questions, I here suggest, be considered speculative merely, let me be indulged a moment in trying [to] show they are not. The war has gone on some twenty months; for the expenses of which, together with an inconsiderable old score, the President now claims about one half of the Mexican teritory; and that, by far the better half, so far as concerns our ability to make any thing out of it. It is comparatively uninhabited; so that we could establish land offices in it, and raise some money in that way. But the other half is already inhabited, as I understand it, tolerably densely for the nature of the country; and all it's lands, or all that are valuable, already appropriated as private property. How then are we to make any thing out of these lands with this incumbrance on them? or how, remove the incumbrance? I suppose no one will say we should kill the people, or drive them out, or make slaves of them, or even confiscate their property. How then can we make much out of this part of the teritory? If the prosecution of the war has, in expenses, already equalled the better half of the country, how long it's future prosecution, will be in equalling, the less valuable half, is not a speculative, question, pressing closely upon us. And yet it is a question which the President seems to never have thought of. As to the mode of terminating the war, and securing peace, the President is equally wandering and indefinite. First, it is to be done by a more vigorous prossecution of the war in the vital parts of the enemies country; and, after apparantly, talking himself tired, on this point, the President drops down into a half despairing tone, and tells us that ``with a people distracted and divided by contending factions, and a government subject to constant changes, by successive revolutions, the continued success of our arms may fail to secure a satisfactory peace[.]'' Then he suggests the propriety of wheedling the Mexican people to desert the counsels of their own leaders, and trusting in our protection, to set up a government from which we can secure a satisfactory peace; telling us, that ``this may become the only mode of obtaining such a peace.'' But soon he falls into doubt of this too; and then drops back on to the already half abandoned ground of ``more vigorous prossecution.[''] All this shows that the President is, in no wise, satisfied with his own positions. First he takes up one, and in attempting to argue us into it, he argues himself out of it; then seizes another, and goes through the same process; and then, confused at being able to think of nothing same process; and then, confused at being able to think of nothing new, he snatches up the old one again, which he has some time before cast off. His mind, tasked beyond it's power, is running hither and thither, like some tortured creature, on a burning surface, finding no position, on which it can settle down, and be at ease.

Again, it is a singular omission in this message, that it, no where intimates when the President expects the war to terminate. At it's beginning, Genl. Scott [was, by this same President, driven into disfavor, if not disgrace, for intimating that peace could not be conquered in less than three or four months. But now, at the end of about twenty months, during which time our arms have given us the most splendid successes---every department, and every part, land and water, officers and privates, regulars and volunteers, doing all that men could do, and hundreds of things which it had ever before been thought men could not do,---after all this, this same President gives us a long message, without showing us, that, as to the end, he himself, has, even an immaginary conception. As I have before said, he knows not where he is. He is a bewildered, confounded, and miserably perplexed man. God grant he may be able to show, there is not something about his conscience, more painful than all his mental perplexity!

Returning to your statement:

a very Clintonian president who clearly lied about the real Texas-Mexico border

Polk's position was that Texas' southern border was the Rio Grande - the border that had been Texas' as an independent Republic for a decade prior to its annexation. Santa Anna and Lincoln's position was that Texas' border was the Nueces River, and that Texas had not settled on the Rio Grande (aka the Rio Bravo) as its border upon winning its independence. If Santa Anna made that claim he was lying as the treaty he signed after San Jacinto indicates:

"Art. 3d. He (Santa Anna) will so prepare matters in the Cabinet of Mexico that the Mission that may be sent thither by the Government of Texas, may be well received, and that by means of negociations all differences may be settled and the Independence that has been declared by the Convention may be acknowledged

Art. 4. A treaty of Commerce, Amity and limits will be estab- lished between Mexico and Texas. The territory of the latter not to extend beyond the Rio. Bravo del Norte."

- Signed at the Port of Velasco on May 14, 1836 by David G. Burnet, President of the Republic of Texas, and by Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, President of Mexico

So you think Texas' border with Mexico is at the Nueces River instead of the Rio Grande? Strange.

Not strange at all. Did you read the speech? Lincoln clearly shows that we had no claim either by treaty, by conquest, or by governence to the Rio Grande. The President lied. (Big surprise --- he was a Democrat.)

Now that's funny, especially considering that Lincoln said not one word against slavery in his speech.

He didn't have to. All the pro-war Southern members of congress made that point for him.

You mean all of Lincoln's words about it being an "unjustified" war don't sound like Dennis Kucinich or Jim McDermott? Strange.

Nope. They sound like the radical Libertarian arguments --- constitutional, anti-empire, rule of law etc.

BTW. Do you support Bush and the war or are you with Lou Rockwell and Pat Buchanan?

Looks like just the opposite. Our excuses for invading Mexico were no more justified than Saddams excuses for invading Kuwait.

You may debate the justification of the resulting territorial acquisition from New Mexico west all you desire. What you cannot debate, though, is that the United States was in the right and Mexico in the wrong over the events that started the war and were its main purpose - the boundary of Texas.

That boundary was set at the Rio Bravo del Norte (Rio Grande) following the battle of San Jacinto in 1836. Between 1836 and 1845 when Texas existed as an independed Republic, Mexico repeatedly and constantly violated the sovereignty of that boundary and sent armies of invasion as far north as San Antonio. Following the annexation of Texas, Mexico, under the very same dictator who signed the original treaty setting the boundary at the Rio Grande, continued the long standing Mexican practice of violating it. Upon annexation, the U.S. stationed troops at the town of Port Isabel (near South Padre Island) to prevent further encroachments of the Texas border. On April 25, 1846 a Mexican army of several thousand again crossed the Rio Grande and attacked Zachary Taylor's forces. A week later, gun encampments in Matamoros on the other side of the Rio Grande began shelling Fort Brown on the Texan side (present day Brownsville).

These were direct acts of war against the United States and the State of Texas, Ditto. They were the simply the latest of several similar invasions of Texas by Mexico over the decade prior. Despite what left wing revisionists and enviro freaks like Henry David/David Henry Thoreau say, the United States was within every right to defend its border from the Mexican attacks, declare war against Mexico as a result of those attacks, and respond to those attacks by invading Mexico to conquer the amassed armies of the Mexican dictator who was waging them.

Not strange at all. Did you read the speech? Lincoln clearly shows that we had no claim either by treaty, by conquest, or by governence to the Rio Grande.

Did it ever occur to you that Lincoln got his facts wrong or was lying in that speech? He even cited the WRONG treaty when he claimed it did not establish the border at the Rio Grande.

Here are the terms of that border, as signed by President Burnet of Texas and President Santa Anna of Mexico in May 1836 after the Battle of San Jacinto:

"Art. 4. A treaty of Commerce, Amity and limits will be established between Mexico and Texas. The territory of the latter not to extend beyond the Rio. Bravo del Norte."

If Lincoln knew of that treaty, which in explicit terms, defines the limit Texas territory at the Rio Bravo de Norte, aka the northern side of the Rio Grande, yet maintained that no such agreement existed, he was lying pure and simple.

BTW. Do you support Bush and the war or are you with Lou Rockwell and Pat Buchanan?

I'm with Bush and in fact have been calling for the U.S. to take action against the mohammedan world long before the present war ever came along.

Treaties of Velasco
14 May 1836

The two treaties of Velasco were negotiated between officials of the ad interim government of the Republic of Texas and Santa Anna, the Mexican dictator and commander of forces, about three weeks after his capture by the Texans at the Battle of San Jacinto.

The "public" treaty, presented below, was to be published and implemented immediately after it was signed. A second "secret" treaty was to be implemented after the terms of the public treaty were fulfilled. In essence, the secret treaty provided for Santa Anna's immediate release in exchange for his recognition of Texas as an independent nation.

However, the treaties were soon violated by both parties. The Texas army blocked Santa Anna's release, as promised in the treaties. Meanwhile, the Mexican government declared void all of Santa Anna's acts while in captivity.

Source: http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/jwb/Collab/West/Velasco.htm

I ask again. Did you actually read Lincoln's words above? You seem not to have.

Yeah, and Cornwallis' surrender at Yorktown was similarly void since it happened after his army was defeated in battle as well.

That is actually a very good analogy to the treaty of Velasco. It simply ended that phase of the battle but it did not end the war nor did it establish boundries. It was 2 full years after Yorktown before the peace tready was signed ending the war and establishing recognized borders.

The Texas boundry was in dispute from the beginning. Even Congress recognized it in 1845 when the voted to annex Texas. A few years later, the slaveocrats used that dispute not to establish a final Texas boundry, but to take the entire southwest from Mexico -- California, New Mexico/Arizona, Colorado and Utah Territory since it was mostly south of 36'30" and open to further slave expansion under the Missouri Compromise. The war had nothing to do with the Texas border and everything to do with the expansion of slavery.

That is actually a very good analogy to the treaty of Velasco. It simply ended that phase of the battle but it did not end the war nor did it establish boundries.

The public treaty did that. The private treaty, however, did something different. In it Santa Anna specifically agreed to formally acknowledge Texas' Independence when he returned to Mexico city:

"He will so prepare matters in the Cabinet of Mexico that the Mission that may be sent thither by the Govern- ment of Texas, may be well received, and that by means of negociations all differences may be settled and the Independence that has been declared by the Convention may be acknowledged"

It also specified what the boundaries, or "limits," of Texas' territory were to be:

"A treaty of Commerce, Amity and limits will be estab- lished between Mexico and Texas. The territory of the latter not to extend beyond the Rio. Bravo del Norte."

The war had nothing to do with the Texas border and everything to do with the expansion of slavery.

Now that's odd, considering that the only reason the war happened was the fact that Mexico marched a hostile army of several thousand men across the Texan border, as it had been doing against Texas on a regular basis every year or two for the previous decade, and used that army to attack an American troop encampment. As I said previously, debate to your heart's content about the legitimacy of taking the territory from New Mexico west. But as far as the war's start and primary purpose goes, it was a legitimate response to an invasion of American territory and an attack upon the State of Texas.

And Al Gore signed the Kyoto Treaty. Does that bind us to the enviro-nazi sacm?

Al Gore was not president of the United States nor was he a dictator with the authority to bind us to it.

The Mexican government never agreed to Velasco. Santa Anna did not have authority to commit the Mexican Government.

Yes he did. Santa Anna was a dictator who used his rule to supersede the Mexican constitution. There were indeed challenges to his rule throughout his many reigns including those of opposition legislatures declaring to invalidate his actions, but his power was ultimately dictatorial and therefore binding of his state.

Even at that, Velasco didn't define the border.

Yes it did. Did you not read my many previous posts in which I quoted directly from the treaty? Here it is again: "Art. 4. A treaty of Commerce, Amity and limits will be established between Mexico and Texas. The territory of the latter not to extend beyond the Rio. Bravo del Norte."

It just said that Mexican troops would stay on the other side of the Rio Grande and Texican troops would not go within 5 leagues of the Rio Grande.

I don't see anything about five leagues in that particular treaty. I do however see something that says that "the territory" of Texas stops at "the Rio. Bravo del Norte."

Maybe we're looking at differend treaties. Here's the one I'm using. It's the same one Lincoln used.

Art 1

Art 2

Art 3

Art 4

Art 5

Art 6

Art 7

Art 8

Art 9

Art 10

Articles of an agreement entered into, between His Excellency David G. Burnet, President of the Republic of Texas, of the one part, and His Excellency General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, President General in Chief of the Mexican Army, of the other part.

Article 1st

General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna agrees that he will not take up arms, nor will he exercise his influence to cause them to be taken up against the people of Texas, during the present war of Independence.

Article 2nd

All hostilities between the mexican and texian troops will cease immediately both on land and water.

Article 3rd

The mexican troops will evacuate the Territory of Texas, passing to the other side of the Rio Grande del Norte.

Article 4th

The mexican Army in its retreat shall not take the property of any person without his consent and just indemnification, using only such articles as may be necessary for its subsistence, in cases when the owner may not be present, and remitting to the commander of the army of Texas or to the commissioner to be appointed for the adjustment of such matters, an account of the value of the property consumed--the place where taken, and the name of the owner, if it can be ascertained.

Article 5th

That all private property including cattle, horses, negro slaves or indentured persons of whatever denomination, that may have been captured by any portion of the mexican army or may have taken refuge in the said army since the commencement of the late invasion, shall be restored to the Commander of the Texian army, or to such other persons as may be appointed by the Government of Texas to receive them.

Article 6th

The troops of both armies will refrain from coming into contact with each other, and to this end the Commander of the army of Texas will be careful not to approach within a shorter distance of the mexican army than five leagues.

Article 7th

The mexican army shall not make any other delay on its march, than that which is necessary to take up their hospitals, baggage [---] and to cross the rivers--any delay not necessary to these purposes to be considered an infraction of this agreement.

Article 8th

By express to be immediately dispatched, this agreement shall be sent to General Filisola and to General T. J. Rusk, commander of the texian Army, in order that they may be apprised of its stipulations, and to this and they will exchange engagements to comply with the same.

Article 9th

That all texian prisoners now in possession of the mexican Army or its authorities be forthwith released and furnished with free passports to return to their homes, in consideration of which a corresponding number of Mexican prisoners, rank and file, now in possession of the Government of Texas shall be immediately released. The remainder of the mexican prisoners that continue in possession of the Government of Texas to be treated with due humanity -- any extraordinary comforts that may be furnished them to be at the charge of the Government of Mexico.

Article 10th

General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna will be sent to Veracruz as soon as it shall be deemed proper.

The contracting parties sign this Instrument for the above mentioned purposes, by duplicate, at the Port of Velasco this fourteenth day of May 1836.

David G Burnet
Ant. Lopez de Santa Anna
Jas Collinsworth, Sec of State
Bailey Hardeman, Secy of Treasury
T W Grayson, Atty General

Ant. Lopez de Santa Anna
David G Burnet
Jas Collinsworth, Secretary of State
Bailey Hardeman, Secy of Treasury
T W Grayson, Atty General

18^th Century Page

Texas Page

Avalon Home Page

Notice Article 5 --- return the run away slaves. To the Mexican's credit, I don't think they ever did.

For the record, here's the treaty which set the border at the Rio Grande. There is not one word of it that says anything about staying five leagues away from that border(though the public agreement that they signed did state that the two armies would stay five leagues away from each other). As I noted previously, Lincoln was quoting from the WRONG treaty and, IMHO, intentionally so. You need to understand, Ditto, that just because Lincoln said it doesn't make it so. The man was a habitual liar, and this speech was one of the many times when he did just that.

Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, General in Chief of the Army of Operations and President of the Republic of Mexico, before the Government established in Texas, solemnly pledges himself to fulfill the stipulations contained in the following Articles, so far as concerns himself.

Art. 1.

He will not take up arms nor cause them to be taken up against the People of Texas during the pres- ent War of Independence.

Art. 2d.

He will give his Orders that in the shortest time the Mexican Troops may leave the Territory of Texas.

Art. 3d.

He will so prepare matters in the Cabinet of Mexico that the Mission that may be sent thither by the Govern- ment of Texas, may be well received, and that by means of negociations all differences may be settled and the Independence that has been declared by the Convention may be acknowledged

Art. 4.

A treaty of Commerce, Amity and limits will be estab- lished between Mexico and Texas. The territory of the latter not to extend beyond the Rio. Bravo del Norte.

Art. 5th The prompt return of Genl. Santa Anna to Vera Cruz being indispensable for the purpose of effecting his solemn engagements, the Government of Texas will provide for his immediate embarkation for said port.

Art. 6th

This instrument being Obligatory on one part as well as on the other will be signed by duplicate, remaining folded and sealed untill the negociation shall have been concluded, when it will be restored to his Excellency General Santa Anna; no use of it to be made before that time unless there should be an infraction by either of the Contracting parties

Port of Velasco May 14. 1836

(Signed) David G. Burnet
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna

James Collinsworth Sec. of State
Baily Hardiman Sec. of Treasury
P. H. Grayson Atty Genl.

Maybe we're looking at differend treaties. Here's the one I'm using. It's the same one Lincoln used.

That indeed appears to be the case. I just posted the text of the treaty I am using.

There were two documents signed at Velasco - a public proclamation and a private treaty. The public proclamation announced to Texas that Santa Anna was to withdraw his armies from Texas. The second treaty laid out the legal agreement at Velasco, including the border and provisions for Santa Anna's departure and return to Mexico. It was kept private at the time because public sentiment in Texas wanted to extract vengeance against Santa Anna for his brutality at the Alamo and Goliad. They wanted him publicly executed, so the government had to be very careful about how it publicly said Santa Anna would be returned and about entering into agreements with him.

As I said previously, Lincoln was quoting from the WRONG treaty in that speech and probably intentionally so.

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The Avalon Project at Yale Law School Treaty of Velasco : 14 May 1836

The Avalon Project at Yale Law School
Treaty of Velasco : 14 May 1836