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Incest Repellent? If gay sex is private, why isn't incest?
Slate ^ | 4/23/03 | William Saletan

Posted on 04/24/2003 7:31:58 AM PDT by William McKinley

This week, the Associated Press published an interview with Rick Santorum, the third-highest ranking Republican in the U.S. Senate. Referring to a pending case involving sodomy laws, Santorum argued, "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery."

David Smith, the communications director of the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's leading gay rights organization, accused Santorum of "disparaging an entire group of Americans." "He's advocating that a certain segment of American society be disavowed from constitutional protection," Smith charged. "The outrageous thing … is he put being gay on the same legal and moral plane as a person who commits incest. That is repugnant in our view and not right."

Why not?

Let's leave adultery and polygamy out of it for the moment. Let's set aside morality and stick to law. And let's grant that being attracted to a gender is more fundamental than being attracted to a family member. Santorum sees no reason why, if gay sex is too private to be banned, the same can't be said of incest. Can you give him a reason?

The easy answer—that incest causes birth defects—won't cut it. Birth defects could be prevented by extending to sibling marriage the rule that five states already apply to cousin marriage: You can do it if you furnish proof of infertility or are presumptively too old to procreate. If you're in one of those categories, why should the state prohibit you from marrying your sibling?

On Wednesday, I asked Smith that question. "We're talking about people; they're talking about specific acts," he said. "It has nothing to do with these other situations that are largely frowned upon by the vast majority of Americans." Is being frowned upon by the vast majority of Americans an acceptable standard for deciding which practices shouldn't be constitutionally protected? "It's not part of the discussion," Smith replied. I asked whether it was constitutionally OK for states to ban incest. "Yes," he said. Why? "There's a compelling interest for the state to ban that practice," he said. What's the compelling interest? For that, Smith referred me to HRC General Counsel Kevin Layton.

Layton pointed out that laws against incest "already exist side by side" with the Supreme Court's current right-to-privacy doctrine. From this, he inferred that the doctrine doesn't cover those laws. But laws against gay sex also exist side by side with the privacy doctrine. If coexistence implies compatibility, then Santorum wins on both counts: States can ban incest and gay sex.

I asked Layton whether states should be allowed to ban incest. "They have a right to do that, as long as they have a rational basis," he said. Do they have such a basis? "It's not my point to argue what a state's rational basis would be for regulating cousin marriage," Layton replied. "The only way the court's decision in [the sodomy] case would go down the slippery slope to incest is if legally they were the same thing, which they're not." Why not? Essentially, Layton reasoned that it isn't his job to explain why incest and gay sex are different. It's Santorum's job to explain why they're similar.

But HRC's own arguments hint at similarities. Like Smith, a defender of brother-sister incest could accuse Santorum of "disparaging an entire group of Americans" and "advocating that a certain segment of American society be disavowed from constitutional protection." In its brief to the Supreme Court in the sodomy case, HRC maintains that "criminalizing the conduct that defines the class serves no legitimate state purpose," since gays "are not less productive—or more dangerous—members of the community by mere dint of their sexual orientation." They sustain "committed relationships" and "serve their country in the military and in the government." Fair enough. But couldn't the same be said of sibling couples? Don't laugh. Cousin couples are already making this argument.

I'm a lifestyle conservative and an orientation liberal. The way I see it, stable families are good, homosexuality isn't a choice, and therefore, gay marriage should be not just permitted but encouraged. Morally, I think incest is bad because it confuses relationships. But legally, I don't see why a sexual right to privacy, if it exists, shouldn't cover consensual incest. I think Santorum is wrong. But I can't explain why, and so far, neither can the Human Rights Campaign.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: gays; homosexualagenda; incest; santorum; tempestinateapot
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To: AnalogReigns
"Bizzarre...I had no idea:

First cousins may legally marry in: AK, AL, CA, CO, CT, FL, GA, HI, MD, MA, NJ, NM, NY, NC, RI, SC, TN, TX, VT, VA
and Washington DC "

Interesting, huh? Most people don't know this stuff. They just assume that first cousins can't marry, but they're wrong. And, in fact, should a first-cousin couple marry, say, in CA, they can move to a state that prohibits first cousin marriages and their marriage is recognized as valid.
41 posted on 04/24/2003 8:24:05 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: mabelkitty
"not at all convinced Bill Clinton isn't the spawn of such a union."

Are you trying to give incest a bad name? A union with Beelzebub is not covered under the definition.

42 posted on 04/24/2003 8:26:10 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Mercy on a pore boy lemme have a dollar bill!)
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To: MineralMan
"Those are the only cases we ever hear of because incestuous relationships between adults are almost never prosecuted. In fact, I can't remember ever hearing of such a prosecution, even though the incidence is not all that low."

By the way, have you seen the X-files episode about the family named "Peacock".
43 posted on 04/24/2003 8:31:26 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Mercy on a pore boy lemme have a dollar bill!)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: RAT Patrol
Especially if we're going to reorder society based simply on how one prefers to get his or her jollies.
46 posted on 04/24/2003 8:34:18 AM PDT by CaptRon
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: Eva
That's a fair argument...but then, by that logic, shouldn't New York be able to legalize gay marriage? Currently, the federal Defense of Marriage act prohibits that.
48 posted on 04/24/2003 8:36:01 AM PDT by ellery
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To: RipSawyer
"By the way, have you seen the X-files episode about the family named "Peacock".
"

Sorry, I don't watch the program. Never have.
49 posted on 04/24/2003 8:37:34 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: William McKinley
The difference is that incest is bad for the genepool and gays don't breed.
50 posted on 04/24/2003 8:37:54 AM PDT by discostu (I have not yet begun to drink)
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To: William McKinley
Re: I'm a lifestyle conservative and an orientation liberal.

??
I don't even think the writer knows what that means.

51 posted on 04/24/2003 8:38:24 AM PDT by ChadGore (Freedom is as natural as a drawn breath.)
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To: CaptRon
Especially if we're going to reorder society based simply on how one prefers to get his or her jollies. Exactly. At this guy took an honest look at it though. But what you said is exactly correct.
52 posted on 04/24/2003 8:39:36 AM PDT by RAT Patrol (Congress can give one American a dollar only by first taking it away from another American. -W.W.)
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To: legman
To paraphrase you, 'the larger issue is this. What is the reach of Government'?

The world is not perfectable; although it is tempting to employ the awesome power of the State to improve the world and its inhabitants, every attempt to do so has resulted in evils unimaginable to the naive idealists who championed these vain crusades.

Choose your own examples; they are innumerable.
53 posted on 04/24/2003 8:40:59 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: discostu
Didn't read the article, did you?

Saletan addresses this point. Several states allow cousins to marry if they provide documentation of sterility. Other states outlaw this. What is the legal basis for laws that deny, say, a brother and sister from marrying if the brother has had a vasectomy?

That's the point Saletan is making. The basis is the same as for sodomy laws. And if that basis is struck down, then there is no legal basis for outlawing a number of things that pretty much everyone agrees should be outlawed.

55 posted on 04/24/2003 8:44:36 AM PDT by William McKinley (You're so vain, you probably think this tagline's about you)
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To: Hodar
Incest does not necessarily involve a minor. Sex with a minor is covered under statutory rape laws. Incest only concerns the family relationship between those having sex. Force is also not an issue.
56 posted on 04/24/2003 8:45:07 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: msimon
To say the Courts are not a remedy if a state chooses to persecute a class of citizens may be Constitutional
That isn't what I said, and it is not even a close enough paraphrasing for me to address.
57 posted on 04/24/2003 8:45:46 AM PDT by William McKinley (You're so vain, you probably think this tagline's about you)
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To: TRY ONE
Incest is relative.
58 posted on 04/24/2003 8:46:08 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: William McKinley
Incest as a non-violent sexual practice among consenting adults is constitutional, but incestual marriages can be banned because governments can regulate contracts. The whole notion of contracts are based on that the state will make them binding, so states (of the feds) can choose which contracts they want to stand behind. Homosexuality is the same way. Private moral repugnancy has NOTHING to do with constitutionality. We're not a theocracy.
59 posted on 04/24/2003 8:46:35 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (Putting government in charge of morality is like putting pedophiles in charge of children.)
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Comment #60 Removed by Moderator


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