Rowan Williams apologises to Freemasons

Telegraph (UK) ^ | 20/04/2003 | Chris Hastings and Elizabeth Day

[nickcarraway]

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has been forced to apologise to Britain's 330,000 Freemasons after he said that their beliefs were incompatible with Christianity and that he had rejected them from senior posts in his diocese.

Dr Williams has written to Robert Morrow, the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, in an attempt to defuse the row prompted by comments he made last year. In his letter, the Archbishop apologises for the "distress" he caused and discloses that his own father was a member of the Craft.

Freemasons, many of whom are active members of the Church of England, reacted angrily to his disclosure that he "had real misgivings about the compatibility of Masonry and Christian profession" and by his admission that, as Bishop of Monmouth, he had blocked the appointment of Freemasons to senior appointments.

His comments about Freemasons were in a private letter leaked to the media shortly after Downing Street confirmed his appointment as head of the Church of England.

Subsequent attempts by his advisers to defuse the row only caused further offence. A spokesman said the Archbishop was worried about the ritual element of Freemasonry, which has been seen as "satanically inspired".

In his letter of apology, Dr Williams tries to distance himself from his own reported comments. He claims that his views were never meant to be public and were distorted by the media.

He wrote: "I have been sorry to learn of the distress of a considerable number of Freemasons . . . In replying to private correspondence, I had no intention of starting a public debate nor of questioning the good faith and generosity of individual Freemasons and I regret the tone and content of the media coverage."

He added: "The quoted statements about the 'satanic' character of the Masonic ceremonies and other matters did not come from me and do not represent my judgment. Since my late father was a member of the Craft for many years, I have had every opportunity of observing the probity of individual members."

Dr Williams does not, in his letter, deny that he has misgivings about the role of Freemasons within the Church.

He wrote: "Where anxieties exist, however, they are in relation not to Freemasonry but to Christian ministers subscribing to what could be and often is understood [or misunderstood] as a private system of profession and initiation, involving the taking of oaths of loyalty."

He ends his letter by stating that Freemasons' commitment to charity and the community is beyond question.

[anniegetyourgun]

I didn't disagree with your point earlier (and your further explanation here) re: some churches. I only know that my relative attended a bible-believing church that also does good in it's community and abroad. My relative gave little to those efforts, choosing instead to buy new carpet and furniture for the lodge.

[patent]

But you've also got to know that your spouting off about idol worship, gay priests, the Pope, etc. is just fueling the fires of those who wrongly believe that the Masons are an anti-Catholic (even anti-Christian) organization.

Can you point to an actual Mason around here who hasn’t gone into anti-Catholic ranting?

When you see a rather consistent level of anti-Catholic rhetoric from members of a group, you have to recognize that it is highly likely that something about that group gives rise to that nature of anti-Catholic ignorance. There could be other reasons, to be sure, that 32nd degree Masons have no better defense for their faith than to hurl insults at Catholics, but this reason seems to be a rather likely one.

I consider many fundamentalist Christians to be good, God fearing men as well, but I can't help but note that such a large percentage of them hate my Church in a way that isn't exactly rational. Why do you think they are so consistent? This is what they are taught, it is an acceptable belief for them. The difference is that they are open about it, and more or less admit it. The Masons lie about it, but clearly attitudes like this are acceptable for the ever so "tolerant" Masons. It strikes me as funny that they claim to tolerate all religions as long as they proclaim a belief in God, but yet they continually make statements about Catholics like the ones we see on this thread.

That should probably make you think.

patent

[nanny]

My relative gave little to those efforts, choosing instead to buy new carpet and furniture for the lodge.

AS I said, you know your relative, but if in fact, you had a bible-believing church that chose to do good in the community - you had a jewel -hope you still do.

But just because your relative made the choices he did, does not mean that all Masons put carpet and furniture ahead of good works. Perhaps he made bad choices, does that mean all Masons are bad. Have you ever been to one of the children's hospitals they help support? If not, you should go. I have only been to one - so don't know if they all are that good - but it was the most caring hospital I have ever seen - the children were the reason for that hospital and children's lives were being changed for the better - it was an experience.

So don't judge all Masons by your relative if he was indeed not doing what he should. But if he gave so much of his money to the Masons' some it got to those children. That's more than I can say about a lot of churches today. There, I am doing what you did - paint all churches with the same brush and that really isn't right for any of us, is it?

Now my husband supports the Masons with money (although he isn't active) he gives to every homeless person he sees, he overtips grocery boys and waitresses. When he sees a kid struggling, he finds a way to help. He gives money to little old ladies to help buy food for stray cats. He was trying to do business with a man just last month that had moved here and the man told him he had just lost his job. He had lost a job up north, moved here, and 6 months later, lost this one. My husband asked if he had money for groceries. The man was so taken aback - he said, "I believe you are serious." (This doesn't get deducted from income tax.) In fact, we have always said if Daddy won a $1 million, he would see if he could give it away before sundown - but I have to pry his fingers open for him to put money to put in a church collection plate. That makes him a bad man - don't thinks so.

[AxelPaulsenJr]

I don't know if in the US there are masonic organizations which are inherently antithetical to Catholicism. Certainly, one might think so from the comments made herein by AxelPaulsenJr, but I would prefer not to condemn masonry in general because of one FR poster spouting anti-Catholic bigotry.

I regret that I have come off as anti-Catholic to you. If in pointing out some of the problems of the Catholic church, in reaction to those Catholics in this forum who are pointing out what they believe to be problems in the Masonic Fraternity, make me thus, then so be it.

If you have read all of the posts on his thread then you will know that I have also criticized my own United Methodist Church for certain of it's stands. i.e. I agreed with a United Methodist poster in this thread who stated that he had real problems with some of the more liberal pronouncements of the United Methodist Church.

I have noted that many of the critics of Masonry in this thread are Catholic. And there does seem to be a definite anti-Masonic bias in this forum as exhibited by these Catholic posters.

After all, he may be an anti-Catholic bigot in reaction to his perception of Catholic hostility toward his masonic membership.

Correct in the source of my reaction, but again I do not feel that pointing out errors of the Catholic church makes me a bigot.

As you probably know, the Catholic Church objects to masonic membership for Catholics in part because she believes that masonry teaches a natural theology that is opposed to the theology of the Church, which finds its basis in Divine Revelation.

For the last time, we in the Masonic order do not pretend to be a church. Nor do we teach any sort of theology. I have been a Mason for 20 years and in that time I have remained firm in my belief that Jesus Christ the Son of God is my ruler and my Lord. Masonry in no way has done anything to attempt to place itself in that position.

Thus, though I know nothing of their rituals, I have seen enough of the reactions of masons towards Catholicism that it is easy enough for me to avoid membership in their organization. You know that I love the Catholic Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, and I can't imagine seeking out the company of those who would calumniate her.

How do you know for a fact that we in the Masonic lodge want to defame and attack the Catholic Church? In preperation for my comments this morning I went to the web site of the Masonic Lodge to see what the Masonic Lodge had to say about Catholics and anti-Masonic commentators.

Among other things I found this item. From our web site: (paraphrasing) "Around 1900 there was a BOGUS oath circulated in the American public that stated that those taking the Knights of Columbus oath, promised to kill all Protestants that they came in contact with. This is a bogus oath."

In this forum we have Catholics posting an equally bogus claim made by an author named William Whalen, that states: " Contained in the Masonic Oath is the claim that Masonry will someday rule the world." I would like to see you call those false posters bigoted as well.

I am still trying to figure out why Catholics feel so threatened by the Masonic Lodge. I wonder if Catholics have ever sent a child of their's to receive free medical help at one of our Children's Burns and Orthopaedic centers? I can assure you that if a Catholic sought to bring their child to one of our hospitals they would not be turned away.

I do believe that historically, much, probably most of masonry was at least functionally anti-Catholic, if not intrinsically so, and I have no desire to belong to an organization that historically worked to limit my rights as a Catholic American to educate my children in my faith.

I am not exactly sure what the lodge did or how we managed to deny you your right to educate your children as you saw fit. Other than there was a lot of anti-Catholic feeling among the American public at the turn of the century

Things somewhere along the lines changed. For as a child in the early sixities I well remember eating fish every Friday in the school cafeteria. I would say that it is safe to assume that that wasn't because the Methodist church wanted fish every Friday.

Even the Catholic church has changed it's thinking in this regard, now I understand that Catholics only observe meatless Fridays during Lent.

The easy solution to this problem is to let the issue drop. I have no more intention of seeking membership in the Catholic church, than do most Catholics to become Masons. Nor do I have any intentions of carrying on this discussion any further.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for your thoughts on this matter. I appreciate your considered approach to the matter.

Regards,

Axel

[Paul C. Jesup]

You are insulting one of the greatest charity organizations in this country. They have done more good than you will ever know exists.

Jesus warned people about false prophets like you.

[steve50]

but thankfully his pastor refused to perform a Masonic funeral.

The pastor isn't qualified to perform a Masonic funeral, unless he is a Mason himself. The ceremony must be requested by the family, and then is performed by Lodge members. All I participated in were done at the funeral home, not the church.

I was a 32 degree and past master of my local and performed a few. No longer a member.

[TontoKowalski]

Can you point to an actual Mason around here who hasn’t gone into anti-Catholic ranting?

Yep. Me. I mentioned in an earlier post that although I haven't been active in quite some time (I move around a good bit), I am a Master Mason.

I also made passing reference to the fact that I dated a Catholic girl at one time. It reached a serious stage, and I was prepared to convert to the Roman Catholic Church. I was raised a Baptist, but consider myself a Christian first and did at the time, as well. Her denomination meant a great deal to her, mine meant less to me. I studied (and still do) the Bible, and not the additional denominational literature. All this was in my pre-Mason days, but I hope it does give some credence to my non-anti-Catholic bias.

In the long run, things didn't work out, but I think of her fondly. I haven't seen her in many years, I don't think that she'll be burning in hell.

Currently, I'm a lapsed Methodist. Like Axel, I found too much in the leadership with which to disagree. Unlike him, I left.

[TontoKowalski]

There, I am doing what you did - paint all churches with the same brush and that really isn't right for any of us, is it?

In fact, we have always said if Daddy won a $1 million, he would see if he could give it away before sundown - but I have to pry his fingers open for him to put money to put in a church collection plate. That makes him a bad man - don't thinks so.

I admit that share your husbands feelings. Jim and Tammy Faye Baker milked my elderly, unworldly grandmother for more money than I care to think about so they could air condition the dog house.

The Methodist Church took part of my contributions to fund a Gay and Lesbian retreat.

Christ commands us to love each other. I believe that means that those of us who are able should make financial and time sacrifices for each other, so that Christ's love is demonstrated through our actions. I'm disillusioned with organized religion, and I've come to a point in my life where I believe I can follow Christ's Commandments without the assistance of a Church Building or heirarchy.

[patent]

Can you point to an actual Mason around here who hasn’t gone into anti-Catholic ranting?

Yep. Me. I mentioned in an earlier post that although I haven't been active in quite some time (I move around a good bit), I am a Master Mason.

I took the earlier post as a parody, though rereading it that should have indicated to me that you were a Mason. I agree you haven’t gone into anti-Catholic ranting, though you are a rarity.

patent  +AMDG

[sitetest]

Dear TontoKowalski,

Thanks for the compliments.

The Knights of Columbus is only open to Catholic men aged 18 or older. It isn't an ethnic society, but a religious society. To be a Knight, you must be a practicing Catholic in union with the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ.

It is hard to enjoy being in the Knights if you aren't a reasonably devout Catholic, as many of our activities presuppose dedication to the Catholic Church, and acceptance of her hierarchy, from the pope on down.

Women may not join the Knights of Columbus, but many Councils have Ladies' Auxiliary organizations, including my own little Council.


sitetest

[TontoKowalski]

The Knights of Columbus is only open to Catholic men aged 18 or older.

Oh, I didn't realize it was open to all Catholic men! I somehow thought it was more of an Italian-centered organization.

I guess because of the "Columbus" connotation, and the fact that the only guys I knew that were members were ethnically Italian.

Thank you for the education.

[Brian Allen]

There is no "secrecy," only confidentiality.

[Brian Allen]

<< Perhaps you and your "Bretheren" are deceived? >>

Your demonstration of contempt prior to investigation projects the black hole that is the content of your character upon those you hold in such contempt.

If I were you -- and faced with such an opportunity to see myself -- I would reflect long and hard upon the self-willed ignorance that I saw -- and pray to be relieved of it and to become enlightened.

Cordially -- Brian

[nanny]

I believe that means that those of us who are able should make financial and time sacrifices for each other, so that Christ's love is demonstrated through our actions. I'm disillusioned with organized religion, and I've come to a point in my life where I believe I can follow Christ's Commandments without the assistance of a Church Building or heirarchy.

You know the last time I went to church, the Sunday after 9/11 - just felt the need to go. I looked around at the beautiful building, the minister and 'music director' in their ultra chic suits and collarless shirts, their styled hair, and the preacher quoted Hemingway and Andy Warhol as a positive statement. I never thought I would hear those two names even mentioned, muchless quoted from a Southern Baptist pulpit.

There is an old story about a black man named John. John is walking along talking to God and he says, "God what is it with those white folks. I have been up to the window and looked in at their church. There they sit with their hands in their laps. Never a AMEN, never a PRAISE JESUS - what is it with them." God says, "John if you have been to the window and looked in at that church, you have been closer to it than I have."

[Brian Allen]

<< That is what has been done on this thread >>

Really.

Are you clairvoyant?

You have met with a Mason here?

[Point one out to me willyah? -- I always wanted to meet one!]

And have confirmed he is in good standing?

Sad to dissillusion you -- but you have not.

It is necessary to meet with him in person.

And for him to also find you to be a Good Man.

Don't be surprised if he is your President, your mechanic, your king, your letter carrier, your commanding officer, your mess orderly -- or your Prime Minister.

Shalom -- Brian

[nanny]

"We must win the common people in every corner. This will be obtained chiefly by means of the schools, and by open, hearty behaviour. Show condescension, popularity and toleration of their prejudices, which we at leisure shall root out and dispel." "If a writer publishes anything that attracts notice, and is in itself just but does not accord with our plan, we must endeavor to win him over-or decry him."

I had to reread all your article - I just saw this part and thought you were talking about our federal government.

[Antoninus]

My problem with him is that he writes like an advocate, rather than like someone who wants to present the truth. By the very nature of advocacy, you start with your position, and then try to find facts to support it. Inconvenient facts are dealt with by shifting them out of focus, ignoring them, or twisting them. Anyway, I like his writing for limited purposes.

Thanks. I sometimes thought I was on the SSPX cusp because some of the things he says made a lot of sense. For what it's worth, I think your evaluation is spot on.

[sitetest]

Dear AxelPaulsenJr,

Thanks for your comments.

I don't really want to have to go back through all the posts in this thread, but several of your comments went beyond the defense of masonry and essentially were tit-for-tat anti-Catholic attacks against the Catholic Church. I understand that they may have been written in anger, but that doesn't excuse them.

There is certainly an anti-masonic bias in Catholicism. Catholicism considers masonry to be in opposition to our faith. But I do wish that the level of invective from both directions could be toned down. I am not a mason, I don't care to be a mason, and I accept my Church's teaching that masonry is antithetical to my being a part of the Catholic Church. That doesn't mean that I have to denigrate masonry.

"Correct in the source of my reaction, but again I do not feel that pointing out errors of the Catholic church makes me a bigot."

In my view, some of your responses have lurched into anti-Catholic bigotry. I acknowledge, however, that you may feel provoked. But that's an explanation, not a justification.

I am unwilling to say that masonry meets the definition of a religion. Nonetheless, masonry itself claims to teach its members certain lessons through the use of its degree ceremonies. The Knights of Columbus is not, of itself, a religion, but does the same thing, teach lessons through our ceremonials. I believe that some of the things the masons try to teach are an awareness and appreciation of God as Creator. That doesn't make masonry a religion. I'm not saying it does. But the lessons taught, I am made to understand, do not in any way rely on a supernatural theology of God, nor on any particular sectarian theology of God. Thus, the lessons taught derive from natural theology.

By the way, Catholics derive much of our faith from natural theology, as well. But the difference is, we believe that theology derived from Divine Revelation is essential to a clear understanding of God and Who He is.

It is the judgement of the Catholic Church (not my judgement!) that the natural theology presented in masonry overly excludes Divine Revelation, and theology derived therefrom, and that this can cause the individual mason to denigrate Divine Revelation, and especially the unique Christian revelation of Jesus Christ. Again, this is the judgement of the Church, not of me. I don't know enough to make that judgement, but I can take the Church's word for it.

"'Thus, though I know nothing of their rituals, I have seen enough of the reactions of masons towards Catholicism that it is easy enough for me to avoid membership in their organization. You know that I love the Catholic Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, and I can't imagine seeking out the company of those who would calumniate her.'

"How do you know for a fact that we in the Masonic lodge want to defame and attack the Catholic Church? In preperation for my comments this morning I went to the web site of the Masonic Lodge to see what the Masonic Lodge had to say about Catholics and anti-Masonic commentators."

Frankly, I know very little, virtually nothing, about what goes on in masonic lodges. I am disinclined to believe that you all sit around hatching anti-Catholic plots. I will be quite shocked if that turns out to be the case. Rather, I am reporting to you my FIRST-HAND ENCOUNTERS with individual masons.

Also, though I don't know what masons do, think, or say in their lodges, and really couldn't care less, I do know that specific masonic organizations in some times and places have engaged in overt anti-Catholic activities. Now read carefully what I wrote. It isn't my intention to condemn all masonry, and all masonic organizations. But masonic organizations in the west and midwest of our country have, in the past, endeavored to pass laws making it difficult for Catholics to educate their own children in Catholicism, apart from the "public" school systems found in these places. These things are a matter of historical record. But they record the actions of specific masons at specific places and times, and I am not trying to say that all masonry in the US is now, currently, anti-Catholic.

I wouldn't be surprised if masonry had a thoughtless anti-Catholicism attached to it in the early years of our country, because, honestly, most folks in the US were anti-Catholic at the founding, even though, ironically, some of the founders were devout Catholics. In the state of Virginia, to say a Catholic Mass was a crime into the early 19th century, AFTER the founding. Maryland, founded by the Catholic Calverts, saw an influx of Protestants during colonial times, and actually saw our Tolerance Acts overturned, and the right to hold office and acquire title to land severely restricted for Catholics.

So, if masonic organizations at the time were largely anti-Catholic (and many were at least in their overt actions - ever heard of the "know-nothings"?), I consider that just part of the culture of the US at the time.

"In this forum we have Catholics posting an equally bogus claim made by an author named William Whalen, that states: 'Contained in the Masonic Oath is the claim that Masonry will someday rule the world.' I would like to see you call those false posters bigoted as well."

I'm a pretty careful fellow. The fact is, I just don't know the truth about masonry. I've read plenty of stuff about the content of masonic rituals. Is it true or false? I don't know. I really have no idea. You're asking me to condemn people for saying things that I don't have the knowledge to evaluate. And it isn't so easy to pick what might be true from what might not be, especially because masonry isn't like Catholicism, in that there isn't any central authority that can definitively define what is and isn't masonry.

I am fairly convinced that the Continental Lodges were at least once quite anti-Catholic. I know that anti-Catholicism was part of the culture of masonry at least in the 18th and 19th centuries, and into the 20th century. Whether there were specific oaths that were specifically anti-Catholic, whether they still exist, etc., etc., is beyond my ability to judge. Or care.

"I am not exactly sure what the lodge did or how we managed to deny you your right to educate your children as you saw fit. Other than there was a lot of anti-Catholic feeling among the American public at the turn of the century."

In the west and midwest, laws were passed to prevent Catholics from running our own schools. Masonic organizations supported the passing of these laws, indeed helped organize support for these laws. Most of these laws were overturned by the Supreme Court, but many of the state laws and constitutional clauses (often known as "Blaine Amendments") barring states from giving any financial support to religious schools also arose out of this time, with masonic support.

Didn't you ever wonder why Catholics have such a predilection toward the Democrat Party? It is because the Republican Party largely sided with the nativists (of which many masonic organizations were part and parcel) against Catholic immigrants in the 19th century. Did you ever hear of James G. Blaine? He ran against Grover Cleveland and lost. "Blaine! Blaine! James G. Blaine! The continental liar from the state of Maine!" LOL. That's what us Catholic Dems said. The Protestant Republicans shouted back, "Ma! Ma! Where's my Pa? Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!" (Cleveland had acknowledged a child borne out of wedlock.)

And you thought politics are nasty now??

Anyway, Mr. Blaine was at a campaign rally where a rather forthright Protestant minister was speechifying. It is said Mr. Blaine fell fast asleep during the oratory, and missed it when the preacher, referring to Irish Catholic immigrants, uttered that infamous phrase, "Rum, Romanism, and rebellion!" in denunciation of we Catholics, especially the Irish ones.

Well, we Catholics didn't care for that, and voted overwhelmingly for Mr. Cleveland, dashing the aspirations of Mr. Blaine. Oh well.

So, historical masonic anti-Catholicism is really part and parcel of a larger cultural anti-Catholicism that was once quite virulent in the United States. That's why I'm skeptical of some efforts to paint the masons as uniquely anti-Catholic. It is part of their history in the United States, but must be understood in the broader context of American society.

So, much of Catholic anti-masonic attitudes can be explained by our history as a people in this country.

But finally, there is one last aspect to our anti-masonic attitudes. In our country, masonic membership has often been associated with rising status in society. Not a few Catholic men have looked at the idea of masonic membership as a way to help "get ahead" in the world. But in the old code of Canon Law, masonic membership was specifically forbidden, and a Catholic man knew he was sacrificing his Catholicism to joing the masons.

The code of Canon Law was revised in 1983, and the specific mention of the ban on masonry was dropped in favor of a more general ban on membership in societies incompatible with Catholic Truth. The teaching did not change, but many people thought it had. And many men joined the masons unwittingly. Even many priests misinterpreted the new Canon Law. Well, we've sort of been fighting a rear-guard action for the past 20 years, cleaning up the consequences of that misunderstanding. The Holy Father specifically attached his name to instructions which definitively interpreted the new Canon Law as continuing the ban on masonic membership for Catholics.

But in the meantime, a lot of folks have been trying to tell us that the Church's teaching has changed, and that now we Catholics can join the masons. It is often couched in language like this, "Now that the Church has changed her silly views, and become more reasonable, you Catholics can join the masons, too!"

I have had more than one conversation along these lines in my life. It is even more vexing when it is an ignorant, ill-informed CATHOLIC doing the talking. As a devout Catholic, I can tell you that I am ADAMANTLY OPPPOSED to Catholic men trying to join the masons.

I do think that such membership is incompatible with Catholic Truth, and I submit to the Church on this teaching.

That being said, I really don't care to get into all the other stuff. My own Council cooperates with other organizations for community events, and sometimes the masons are among those with whom we work. They seem like good, decent folks, and you won't get me to say anything negative about these individuals.

Well, this post has gone on long enough. I hope that it helps you understand Catholic thought concerning masonry, if you were able to make yourself read through the whole thing.


sitetest

[Cap'n Crunch]

Oh, but Masonry is a religion. Here are some quotes by several of the Masonic writers:

"I contend, without any sort of hesitation, that Masonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution...Its religion is that general one of natural and primitive reveltion."-Albert Mackey from his "encyclopedia of Freemasonry"

"The religion of Masonry is pure theism, the truth that masonry is undoubtedly a religious insititution, which, handed down through a long sucession of ages from that ancient priesthood..." Albert Mackey

"If Freemasonry were not a religion, what would have to e done to make it such? Nothing would be necessary or at least nothing but to add more of the same."-Henry Coil

"Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zeroaster, can assemble as bretheren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all Baalim, must needs leave to each of it's initiates to look for the foundation of his faith and hope to the written scriptures of his own religion."-Albert Pike

[AxelPaulsenJr]

Yes I did read your whole post and I found it most informative and enlightening.

Thank you for your time in replying to me.

Regards,

Axel