10 years after Waco siege, police face another standoff (Gun Barrel City) - rehash of Waco debacle

The Dallas Morning News ^ | April 19, 2003 | By DAVE HIOTT / The Dallas Morning News

[MeekOneGOP]

10 years after Waco siege, police face another standoff

04/19/2003

By DAVE HIOTT / The Dallas Morning News

GUN BARREL CITY, Texas – Sheriff J.R. "Ronny" Brownlowe isn't ready for a showdown. Not like the one 10 years ago a few miles outside Waco.

On Saturday, survivors will mark the passing of a decade since at least 74 people died at the fiery end of the Branch Davidian siege. But for Sheriff Brownlowe's Henderson County deputies, it will only be another day in another standoff, now nearly three years old.

Militant fundamentalist John Joe Gray, 54, retreated to his 47 acres near Cedar Creek Lake about 40 miles southeast of Dallas after warrants were issued for his arrest in May 2000. Seven adults and three children are believed to be holed up on his property, hunting, fishing, planting gardens and patrolling the land with guns.

"The entire thing is not worth one of those children getting hurt," said Sheriff Brownlowe.

Patience may not always work, but Sheriff Brownlowe is willing to try. It's a lesson he and other law officers took from Waco, where those who lived through the 51-day siege still debate whether greater patience could have changed the outcome.

In the past decade the government's handing of the standoff has been held up as an example of how not to deal with militant groups. Negotiators and tactical leaders were sometimes at cross-purposes, especially when FBI commanders, smarting from the deaths of four federal agents during the Feb. 28 gunfight that started the standoff, opted to make a strong show of force to weaken the will of the Branch Davidians.

"I think there was a belief that if you put enough pressure on this group that has killed federal agents... then the psychic glue that holds them together will crack and they'll come in one by one two by two and surrender," said Clint Van Zandt, a lead FBI negotiator at Waco. "Had it worked we all would have said, 'Hooray.' "

It didn't work. The raid – to search the Mount Carmel compound for illegal weapons and arrest sect leader David Koresh on weapons charges – and the tough tactics which followed seemed to confirm the Branch Davidians' belief that they would face an apocalyptic ending in a battle with the government.

Ten Bradley fighting vehicles, two Abrams tanks and five other combat engineer vehicles were brought to the scene to counter the heavily armed sect members.

"How do you protect your agents against a 50 caliber rifle? You put them in a tank," said Danny Coulson, an FBI deputy assistant director at the time of the standoff. "It hurt to see FBI agents in tanks, but on the other hand, would you rather see an FBI agent with his head blown off?"

Breakdown of trust

Negotiators worked constant 12-hour shifts. Dozens of agents, including snipers, surrounded the property northeast of Waco.

Federal agents allowed Branch Davidians to retrieve their dead for burial, gave them medical supplies, milk and food, and even allowed the retrieval of Bible study materials left in a car.

At first, negotiators made steady progress in persuading Mr. Koresh to send out members of the sect, especially children.

On March 2, authorities arranged to have a 58-minute religious message by Mr. Koresh aired on the radio. But he reneged on a promise to surrender afterward, saying God told him to remain inside to write an interpretation of the Seven Seals mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

Trust began to break down.

Dr. Nancy Ammerman, a religion and sociology expert who co-authored a 1993 report to the Justice Department critical of how the FBI handled the standoff, said commanders failed to properly consider the depth of the Branch Davidians' beliefs.

"When they refer to the way Davidians talk as 'Bible babble' then you have to wonder about the level of respect," she said.

Mr. Van Zandt disagreed.

"I was on my phone multiple times calling back to my pastor in Virginia just bouncing ideas off him. ... I spent 2 ½ hours with Koresh one night one-on-one because he wanted to talk to someone who was a Christian."

Mr. Coulson said Mr. Koresh reneged on several promises of surrender. By March 23, 35 people had left the compound, but little trust remained. Only two more sect members would leave before April 19.

Determining tactics

Starving out the Branch Davidians was not an option. Officials believed they had a year's worth of food and plenty of water.

Tactical commanders rejected Mr. Van Zandt's idea to erect a tall fence around the compound and send the military hardware away.

"At a barricade situation like Waco or Ruby Ridge" where federal agents had been killed, "the people involved are anywhere from afraid to pumped up or empowered. ... We denied them the vision of tomorrow."

The FBI's Hostage Rescue Team was headed by Dick Rogers, who developed rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. That 11-day standoff in 1992 followed a gunfight in which a federal marshal and the 14-year-old son of separatist Randy Weaver were killed. Mr. Weaver's wife was shot by an FBI sniper while holding her baby and standing in the doorway of her home during the standoff.

Mr. Rogers has left the FBI and could not be reached for comment. As the standoff dragged on, he was ready to force a showdown with Mr. Koresh. "Being nice to him was playing right into his hands," Mr. Rogers has said.

As the days dragged into weeks, the FBI cut off the electricity, used "flash bang" devices to set off loud but harmless explosions, blared music and recordings of the sounds of rabbits being slaughtered into the compound, and directed blinding spotlights at the building during the night.

The armored vehicles, which were disarmed, were driven around the site at all hours to keep the sect members off guard.

Mr. Rogers and negotiators were often at odds during the standoff. Mr. Van Zandt, like other negotiators, said both Waco and Ruby Ridge "put negotiators in conflict with tactical teams... in both cases tactical teams won out and they ended in a way government wished they wouldn't."

Mr. Rogers endorsed using tear gas to end the standoff.

He told Justice Department interviewers in 1993: "I have never commented to any investigators concerning negotiations because I don't view it as having a lot to do with the outcome at Waco. I think given enough time, any negotiator could get them out if there was no suicide, but what is enough time?"

Beginning of the end

The tear gas proposal went to Attorney General Janet Reno on April 12 although some outside experts and FBI agents worried that the sect might commit mass suicide. Concerned about the children because of sex abuse allegations against Mr. Koresh, Ms. Reno approved the plan on April 17 after several days of debate.

Mr. Van Zandt said FBI tactics used against the Branch Davidians had only brought the group closer together and limited the possibility of surrender. "Koresh was the core of a bomb," he said.

Although Mr. Koresh's mother, Bonnie Haldeman, said her son "never, never" believed in suicide, she acknowledged that "on a human level it would have been very hard for him" to surrender.

Beginning at 6 a.m. on April 19, loudspeakers ordered sect members to walk out and surrender. Armored vehicles began to ram the building, punching holes into the structure and inserting tear gas.

Bugging devices secretly inserted into the walls of the compound recorded Branch Davidians after the attack began and before the fire saying things such as, "Have you poured it yet?" and "David said we have to get the fuel on" and, the last statement recorded,"Let's keep that fire going."

Mr. Koresh chose suicide by fire rather than surrender. His prophecy of a final battle against the government was self-fulfilling.

"The Davidians started the fires," said Mr. Van Zandt. "The only question is, did the government put them in a position to facilitate that, and the answer is probably yes."

That lesson is not lost on Sheriff Brownlowe, still patiently awaiting Mr. Gray's surrender. The former member of an anti-government militia is wanted on felony charges after biting a state trooper and trying to grab his gun during a traffic stop. He now faces weapons charges, too.

The family has a well, but no running water. They have a small generator for limited power, but the electricity was cut off long ago.

"At some point in time that's got to get old," said Sheriff Brownlowe. "They're prisoners on their own property."

It may not be too late for Mr. Gray and his family, but the Branch Davidians are a dying religious sect.

Forensics specialists could never determine how many died from gunshot wounds inflicted by the Branch Davidians or from the roaring inferno. Some burned bodies were fused together and specialists could not differentiate between them. But the Branch Davidians say 74 died in the fire, including more than 20 children. And two unborn children are believed to have died.

"All these faces of Waco are like ghosts sliding past you one at a time," said Mr. Van Zandt. "You have to say, 'Was it foolhardy or was it not? Did you die for a good cause or die uselessly?' "

E-mail dhiott@dallasnews.com

---

Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/tsw/stories/041903dntexwaco.6bdbe.html

[Henrietta]

"Do you have that 'cite' yet proving your point?"

Jimbo, I'll speak really slowly and try to use small words: The lack of a report of an attempted arrest in the FBI/BATF records is proof that it did not happen. Get it?

Or can you prove that they DID try it and failed?

[strela]

Most of this article is a re-hash of the Waco, Texas Branch Davidian disaster. I expect (hope) this one turns out better.

Ghod but I love an optimist ...

[_Jim]

Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion.

Unable to get my 'argument' right?

I'm not surprised.

Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure.

[Henrietta]

"Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion."

Amen, thank you. He's essentially asking me to prove a negative. The absence of a reported attempt to arrest Korest off of the compound is good enough for me, for reasons I have explained in earlier posts.

[_Jim]

The lack of a report of

I notice the word 'FACT' was missing in this last attempt - you also cannot *still* conclude that activities may have been planned, but were either called off or were terminated in the planning stage simply by a lack of documents OR the abscence of a successful off-site arrest ...

[Henrietta]

I stated that if Koresh had been arrested off of the compound, that the whole conflagration could have been avoided.

You said: "No it's not - now it's reached the stage of common, rampant speculation ."

So you think that had Koresh been arrested off of the compound that they would have gone in with tanks anyway? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Why would the Feds do that? Please explain?

[strela]

Visitors have said it is fortified with sandbagged shooting positions, trenches and an underground bunker built of concrete and wood."

Why you old jackbooted reactionary!

sandbagged shooting positions

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't play Army in your own yard?

trenches

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't plant really big begonias in your own yard?

underground bunker built of concrete and wood

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't build a root cellar to put up your home-canned blackeyed peas in your own yard?

(removing tongue in cheek lest it get stuck in there forever)

[Henrietta]

"Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure."

Failure to understand that it is difficult to prove a negative is yours.

But, as we have said, the lack of any reported arrest attempt by the feds means that there wasn't one. If they had tried to arrest him off of the compound, they would have so stated, as it would have given them an excuse to go in with tanks blasting to the compound.

[FreeSpeechZone]

FBI scientist admitted false testimony
Associated Press ^ | 4/17/2003 | John Solomon


Posted on 04/18/2003 10:54 AM PDT by heyhey


FBI scientist admitted false testimony

Documents show specialist upset at challenge to lab

WASHINGTON - Weeks after testifying at a court hearing in a Kentucky murder, FBI scientist Kathleen Lundy told her superiors that she had knowingly given false testimony about her specialty of lead bullet analysis.

In an e-mail likely to be used against her, now that she has been charged by Kentucky authorities on a charge of misdemeanor false swearing, Lundy wrote her superior: ''I had to admit that it was worse than being evasive or not correcting the record. It was simply not telling the truth.''

Internal FBI documents obtained by the Associated Press show that the FBI lab, which reformed itself after a mid-1990s scandal over bad science, is grappling with new problems that have opened its work on lead bullets and DNA analysis to challenges by defense lawyers.

In addition to Lundy's indictment:

A FBI lab technician has resigned while under investigation for allegedly improper testing of more than 100 DNA samples, and the lab is now reviewing samples she placed into the FBI national database of DNA evidence.

The Houston police crime lab has been banned from placing new samples into the FBI's DNA registry because of allegations of shoddy science in local cases.

One of the lab's retired metallurgists is challenging the bureau's science on bullet analysis, prompting the FBI to ask the National Academy of Sciences to review its methodology.

FBI lab director Dwight Adams said that detection of the problems illustrates that the reforms instituted in the mid-1990s are working.

''The difference is, these are being caught and dealt with swiftly,'' Adams said in an interview. ''Our quality assurance program is in place to root out these problems, incompetence, and inaccurate testimonies. These weren't fortuitous catches; they were on purpose.''

Defense lawyers are already mounting challenges in high-profile cases handled by the two employees and are questioning the FBI's project to build a national DNA database that will help law enforcement identify suspects based on their genetic fingerprints.

''We all have assumed the scientists are telling the truth because they do it with authority and tests, and as a result FBI scientists have gotten away with voodoo science,'' said Lawrence Goldman, president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa and chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, said yesterday that he has requested a briefing and that he believes that Congress must investigate the latest problems.

''The scientists of the FBI crime lab hold people's lives and justice for crime victims in their hands,'' said Grassley, whose investigation prompted the first FBI lab reforms in the 1990s. ''The FBI crime lab must be beyond reproach.''

The Justice Department's inspector general is investigating FBI lab technician Jacqueline Blake on charges of failing to follow proper scientific procedure when analyzing DNA in at least 103 cases over the past few years, officials said. The officials said they have found that the technician failed to compare the DNA evidence with control samples, a required step to ensure the accuracy of tests. Blake resigned from the FBI lab recently.

Lundy, now on administrative leave, served as an expert witness who used chemical comparisons to link lead bullets to suspects. She was indicted earlier this year on a charge of misdemeanor false swearing by Kentucky authorities after she acknowledged she had given false testimony in a 2002 pretrial hearing for a man accused of murdering a University of Kentucky football player.

Lundy informed her FBI superiors of the false testimony a couple of months after it occurred. By that time she had corrected her pretrial testimony at the trial and had been questioned about it by defense lawyers. Federal authorities decided not to prosecute her, but Kentucky prosecutors brought the misdemeanor charge.

''I cannot explain why I made the original error in my testimony ... nor why, knowing that the testimony was false, I failed to correct it at the time,'' Lundy wrote in an affidavit to Justice Department officials. ''I was stressed out by this case and work in general.''

Lundy also disclosed that she had been increasingly concerned that a former lab colleague, retired metallurgist William Tobin, was beginning to appear as a defense witness in cases and openly questioning the FBI's science on gun lead.

''These challenges affected me a great deal, perhaps more than they should have,'' Lundy wrote. ''I also felt that there was ineffective support from the FBI to meet the challenges.''

[RLK]

In their hurry to start the festivities nobody brought one. LOL!

----------------------

It isn't funny. It is the truth. Nobody bothered with an arrest warrent or anything else.

[Henrietta]

"I notice the word 'FACT' was missing in this last attempt - you also cannot *still* conclude that activities may have been planned, but were either called off or were terminated in the planning stage simply by a lack of documents OR the abscence of a successful off-site arrest ..."

We are not talking about whether an arrest was planned, so quit trying to change the subject.

The FACT is that no arrest attempt was carried out, and we know this to be so by the lack of an incident report on the incident. The lack of a report indicates that no such arrest was attempted. Of course the off-site arrest was unsuccessful; it was never attempted. They chose to go in with guns blazing instead.

This is my last post on the subject. I'm going to take the advice I gave to my friend Fred and sign off, as I think I've made my point to the others on this thread.

You, apparently, seem too stubborn to change your views after a reasoned response has been handed to you on a silver platter. Oh, well...

[tpaine]

Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion.
-tpaine-


Unable to get my 'argument' right? I'm not surprised.
Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure.
143 -jim-


Your flat denial of reality is not an argument.
And your lawyer-like bull about 'conjecture' is sheer bafflegab.

It is well documented fact that Koresh left the 'compound' frequently. -- Roscoe could get you 'cites' easily.

[Fifth Business]

It isn't funny. It is the truth. Nobody bothered with an arrest warrent or anything else.

Of course. It was your turn of a phrase that amused me. It was clever.

[Roscoe]

When he gets his promotion to General of the Texas Militia, he'll replace the barbed wire with razor wire.

[AAABEST]

and putting out fire ant bait You MUST try this stuff by Bayer. It's the best I've used hands down, better than Ortho and no odor. Little bit more expensive but worth it.

None of this taking the bait to the all of the royalty. One teaspoon and the entire mound, queen and all is DEAD the next day.

[the_daug]

The initial engagement was suppose to be a show for the media. If the goverment wanted Vernon Howell they could have done so. They could of asked him to appear in court with a summons presented by a sherrif deputy. I watched the engagement on TV. I think it was likely that some of the agents killed were by friendly fire.

[N8VTXNinWV]

you must know about his (Vernons') previous 'fights' with the others over who 'was the son of God'.... are you from around Waco? You must be 'cause what you're saying is what I know, too.... A lot of people discussing this topic don't know the WHOLE background of Mr. Howell and the Branch Dividians. I refuse to call him David Koresh!

[strela]

Logic (growth regulator) works well too, but the stuff is like $35 for just enough to do the front yard. I'll try this - anything would be better than dusting individual mounds with Orthene. Thanks.

[strela]

They chose to go in with guns blazing instead.

Weren't the Davidians the ones who started shooting first? This WAS 10 years ago and I've slept since then, so I could be wrong.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I haven't hit the abuse button on you yet, hot shot. I was kinda hoping your posts would stay out in public.