10 years after Waco siege, police face another standoff (Gun Barrel City) - rehash of Waco debacle

The Dallas Morning News ^ | April 19, 2003 | By DAVE HIOTT / The Dallas Morning News

[Henrietta]

"Do you have that 'cite' yet proving your point?"

Jimbo, I'll speak really slowly and try to use small words: The lack of a report of an attempted arrest in the FBI/BATF records is proof that it did not happen. Get it?

Or can you prove that they DID try it and failed?

[strela]

Most of this article is a re-hash of the Waco, Texas Branch Davidian disaster. I expect (hope) this one turns out better.

Ghod but I love an optimist ...

[_Jim]

Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion.

Unable to get my 'argument' right?

I'm not surprised.

Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure.

[Henrietta]

"Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion."

Amen, thank you. He's essentially asking me to prove a negative. The absence of a reported attempt to arrest Korest off of the compound is good enough for me, for reasons I have explained in earlier posts.

[_Jim]

The lack of a report of

I notice the word 'FACT' was missing in this last attempt - you also cannot *still* conclude that activities may have been planned, but were either called off or were terminated in the planning stage simply by a lack of documents OR the abscence of a successful off-site arrest ...

[Henrietta]

I stated that if Koresh had been arrested off of the compound, that the whole conflagration could have been avoided.

You said: "No it's not - now it's reached the stage of common, rampant speculation ."

So you think that had Koresh been arrested off of the compound that they would have gone in with tanks anyway? That's what you're saying, isn't it? Why would the Feds do that? Please explain?

[strela]

Visitors have said it is fortified with sandbagged shooting positions, trenches and an underground bunker built of concrete and wood."

Why you old jackbooted reactionary!

sandbagged shooting positions

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't play Army in your own yard?

trenches

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't plant really big begonias in your own yard?

underground bunker built of concrete and wood

Where in the Constitution does it say you can't build a root cellar to put up your home-canned blackeyed peas in your own yard?

(removing tongue in cheek lest it get stuck in there forever)

[Henrietta]

"Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure."

Failure to understand that it is difficult to prove a negative is yours.

But, as we have said, the lack of any reported arrest attempt by the feds means that there wasn't one. If they had tried to arrest him off of the compound, they would have so stated, as it would have given them an excuse to go in with tanks blasting to the compound.

[FreeSpeechZone]

FBI scientist admitted false testimony
Associated Press ^ | 4/17/2003 | John Solomon


Posted on 04/18/2003 10:54 AM PDT by heyhey


FBI scientist admitted false testimony

Documents show specialist upset at challenge to lab

WASHINGTON - Weeks after testifying at a court hearing in a Kentucky murder, FBI scientist Kathleen Lundy told her superiors that she had knowingly given false testimony about her specialty of lead bullet analysis.

In an e-mail likely to be used against her, now that she has been charged by Kentucky authorities on a charge of misdemeanor false swearing, Lundy wrote her superior: ''I had to admit that it was worse than being evasive or not correcting the record. It was simply not telling the truth.''

Internal FBI documents obtained by the Associated Press show that the FBI lab, which reformed itself after a mid-1990s scandal over bad science, is grappling with new problems that have opened its work on lead bullets and DNA analysis to challenges by defense lawyers.

In addition to Lundy's indictment:

A FBI lab technician has resigned while under investigation for allegedly improper testing of more than 100 DNA samples, and the lab is now reviewing samples she placed into the FBI national database of DNA evidence.

The Houston police crime lab has been banned from placing new samples into the FBI's DNA registry because of allegations of shoddy science in local cases.

One of the lab's retired metallurgists is challenging the bureau's science on bullet analysis, prompting the FBI to ask the National Academy of Sciences to review its methodology.

FBI lab director Dwight Adams said that detection of the problems illustrates that the reforms instituted in the mid-1990s are working.

''The difference is, these are being caught and dealt with swiftly,'' Adams said in an interview. ''Our quality assurance program is in place to root out these problems, incompetence, and inaccurate testimonies. These weren't fortuitous catches; they were on purpose.''

Defense lawyers are already mounting challenges in high-profile cases handled by the two employees and are questioning the FBI's project to build a national DNA database that will help law enforcement identify suspects based on their genetic fingerprints.

''We all have assumed the scientists are telling the truth because they do it with authority and tests, and as a result FBI scientists have gotten away with voodoo science,'' said Lawrence Goldman, president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa and chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, said yesterday that he has requested a briefing and that he believes that Congress must investigate the latest problems.

''The scientists of the FBI crime lab hold people's lives and justice for crime victims in their hands,'' said Grassley, whose investigation prompted the first FBI lab reforms in the 1990s. ''The FBI crime lab must be beyond reproach.''

The Justice Department's inspector general is investigating FBI lab technician Jacqueline Blake on charges of failing to follow proper scientific procedure when analyzing DNA in at least 103 cases over the past few years, officials said. The officials said they have found that the technician failed to compare the DNA evidence with control samples, a required step to ensure the accuracy of tests. Blake resigned from the FBI lab recently.

Lundy, now on administrative leave, served as an expert witness who used chemical comparisons to link lead bullets to suspects. She was indicted earlier this year on a charge of misdemeanor false swearing by Kentucky authorities after she acknowledged she had given false testimony in a 2002 pretrial hearing for a man accused of murdering a University of Kentucky football player.

Lundy informed her FBI superiors of the false testimony a couple of months after it occurred. By that time she had corrected her pretrial testimony at the trial and had been questioned about it by defense lawyers. Federal authorities decided not to prosecute her, but Kentucky prosecutors brought the misdemeanor charge.

''I cannot explain why I made the original error in my testimony ... nor why, knowing that the testimony was false, I failed to correct it at the time,'' Lundy wrote in an affidavit to Justice Department officials. ''I was stressed out by this case and work in general.''

Lundy also disclosed that she had been increasingly concerned that a former lab colleague, retired metallurgist William Tobin, was beginning to appear as a defense witness in cases and openly questioning the FBI's science on gun lead.

''These challenges affected me a great deal, perhaps more than they should have,'' Lundy wrote. ''I also felt that there was ineffective support from the FBI to meet the challenges.''

[RLK]

In their hurry to start the festivities nobody brought one. LOL!

----------------------

It isn't funny. It is the truth. Nobody bothered with an arrest warrent or anything else.

[Henrietta]

"I notice the word 'FACT' was missing in this last attempt - you also cannot *still* conclude that activities may have been planned, but were either called off or were terminated in the planning stage simply by a lack of documents OR the abscence of a successful off-site arrest ..."

We are not talking about whether an arrest was planned, so quit trying to change the subject.

The FACT is that no arrest attempt was carried out, and we know this to be so by the lack of an incident report on the incident. The lack of a report indicates that no such arrest was attempted. Of course the off-site arrest was unsuccessful; it was never attempted. They chose to go in with guns blazing instead.

This is my last post on the subject. I'm going to take the advice I gave to my friend Fred and sign off, as I think I've made my point to the others on this thread.

You, apparently, seem too stubborn to change your views after a reasoned response has been handed to you on a silver platter. Oh, well...

[tpaine]

Your flat denials that the feds could have arrested Koresh off the 'compound', are not discussion.
-tpaine-


Unable to get my 'argument' right? I'm not surprised.
Failure to understand the concept that a 'statement' provided without proof is 'conjecture' or guessing is your second failure.
143 -jim-


Your flat denial of reality is not an argument.
And your lawyer-like bull about 'conjecture' is sheer bafflegab.

It is well documented fact that Koresh left the 'compound' frequently. -- Roscoe could get you 'cites' easily.

[Fifth Business]

It isn't funny. It is the truth. Nobody bothered with an arrest warrent or anything else.

Of course. It was your turn of a phrase that amused me. It was clever.

[Roscoe]

When he gets his promotion to General of the Texas Militia, he'll replace the barbed wire with razor wire.

[AAABEST]

and putting out fire ant bait You MUST try this stuff by Bayer. It's the best I've used hands down, better than Ortho and no odor. Little bit more expensive but worth it.

None of this taking the bait to the all of the royalty. One teaspoon and the entire mound, queen and all is DEAD the next day.

[the_daug]

The initial engagement was suppose to be a show for the media. If the goverment wanted Vernon Howell they could have done so. They could of asked him to appear in court with a summons presented by a sherrif deputy. I watched the engagement on TV. I think it was likely that some of the agents killed were by friendly fire.

[N8VTXNinWV]

you must know about his (Vernons') previous 'fights' with the others over who 'was the son of God'.... are you from around Waco? You must be 'cause what you're saying is what I know, too.... A lot of people discussing this topic don't know the WHOLE background of Mr. Howell and the Branch Dividians. I refuse to call him David Koresh!

[strela]

Logic (growth regulator) works well too, but the stuff is like $35 for just enough to do the front yard. I'll try this - anything would be better than dusting individual mounds with Orthene. Thanks.

[strela]

They chose to go in with guns blazing instead.

Weren't the Davidians the ones who started shooting first? This WAS 10 years ago and I've slept since then, so I could be wrong.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I haven't hit the abuse button on you yet, hot shot. I was kinda hoping your posts would stay out in public.