10 years later, memories of Waco tragedy linger - fatal Branch Davidian standoff

Associated Press ^ | April 17, 2003 | Associated Press Staff

[MeekOneGOP]

10 years later, memories of Waco tragedy linger

City hopes to put fatal Branch Davidian standoff behind it

04/17/2003

Associated Press

WACO, Texas – During business trips across the country, Mayor Linda Ethridge likes to talk about Waco's small-town comforts and big-city amenities, the new programs at Baylor University and the local plant that makes Snickers candy bars.

She can name famous native Wacoans – comedian Steve Martin, author Robert Fulghum and former Texas Gov. Ann Richards among them. Ethridge will talk about the Dr Pepper Museum, honoring the soft drink created here in 1885 and the expansion project at the award-winning zoo.

She and other city leaders don't mention the 1993 standoff at a religious sect's compound that burned to the ground and left nearly 80 people dead – unless someone asks about it.

And that happens sometimes, even now.

"For some people, that association is still there," Ethridge said. "You'll have random interchanges with people, but it's a little less often."

The Branch Davidian site was some 10 miles east of the city, down a two-lane winding road through farmland and then off a dusty road. The group had been there quietly for decades but had been growing since the mid-1980s arrival of leader David Koresh.

Few in Waco even paid attention to them until Feb. 28, 1993, when federal agents tried to arrest Koresh for stockpiling illegal weapons. Four lawmen and six sect members died in the shootout following the raid, which led to a 51-day standoff.

Day after day, for nearly two months, people across the world heard about a town called Waco and saw television images of the rudimentary compound buildings rising out of the wind-swept prairie.

They saw authorities clad in cowboy hats and boots, guns slung in hip holsters. They heard late-night television comedians call the town "Wacko."

Waco Attractions

The 10 most popular tourist attractions in Waco, based on number of visitors in 2002: 1. Cameron Park Zoo: Natural-habitat zoo on 52 acres with 700 animals and 245 species. 2. Art Center Waco: Hosts art exhibitions and classes and has sculpture garden on 2.5 acres of McLennan Community College. 3. Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and Museum: Features Bonnie and Clyde's shotguns. 4. Dr Pepper Museum: Housed in the first bottling plant of the soft drink created in Waco in 1885. 5. Gov. Bill and Vara Daniel Historic Village: Includes 20 carefully preserved wood-frame buildings providing snapshots of Texas life in the 1890s. 6. Armstrong Browning Library: The world's largest collection of memorabilia of English Victorian poets Robert Browning and his wife, Elizabeth Barrett Browning. 7. Historic Waco Foundation: Four homes built in the mid-1800s and restored. 8. Texas Sports Hall of Fame: Pays tribute to some of Texas history's sports greats. 9. Earle-Harrison House: Greek Revival-style mansion is the only restored antebellum home open to the public in Waco. 10. Strecker Museum: Founded in 1856, the state's oldest continually operating museum. Source: Waco Convention and Visitors Bureau.

Then on April 19, 1993, viewers saw the inferno.

"People were watching the Branch Davidian events unfold, and it sort of engraved that association to Waco in the minds of many people," said Ethridge, who was elected to the City Council in 1993 and mayor in 2000. "And a lot of that played to existing stereotypes: It was Texas, there were guns and it involved religion."

Many of Waco's 113,000 residents say it's an unfair association because the incident was outside city limits and involved federal agencies.

"Do they associate airplane crashes with the city where it happened?" said Joe T. Hayward, 81, a retired professor. "What bothers me are people who don't look at the facts and associate anything they can with a tragedy."

Some locals have little sympathy for surviving Davidians who claim the blaze was started after military vehicles rammed the buildings and sprayed tear gas inside.

A 2000 report on the final government investigation said the Davidians started the fire and shot each other – even some of the two dozen youngsters – in a mass suicide, ending the standoff.

"It was a tragedy but a tragedy that didn't have to happen, and it could have happened anywhere," Hayward said.

In the months after the compound burned, city leaders didn't notice a drop in tourism. But folks stopping by the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce wanted to know all about the Branch Davidians and how to get to the site.

After lengthy discussions on how to handle the issue, officials decided to have maps printed.

"It's a historical event, and you can't deny it happened. If we did, we'd look like we were trying to hide something," said Jack Stewart, president and CEO of the chamber. "We really had nothing to do with it, other than geography."

As time has passed, the maps have run out, and fewer people inquire about the out-of-the-way site with no signs or markers.

Those living nearby say several hundred people stop each year at the site, which now has a one-room visitors center, some memorial plaques and a chapel built on the compound remnants. A grove of 82 trees was planted several years ago, one representing each victim, including some unborn children.

Meanwhile, city officials have been busy touting Waco as a neighbor to President Bush, who several times a year visits his 1,600-acre ranch about 20 miles away in Crawford.

Because Crawford has no motels and few restaurants, the media and those traveling with Bush must stay in Waco – where city officials have seized what they call a golden opportunity to showcase hometown hospitality.

Each time Bush goes to his "Western White House" or appears in Waco, the Chamber of Commerce distributes media kits containing a calendar of events, list of restaurants and information on laundry and other services. The chamber even sets up a hot line for the visiting media to call with questions day or night.

Now, reporters seem interested in finding out about Waco's history and attractions, and they rarely bring up the Branch Davidian standoff, Stewart said.

"We've been fortunate," he said. "We felt strongly that the president's residence would have a positive impact on Waco's image, and that's happened." –––

---

Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/tsw/stories/041703dntexwaco.10ec0.html

[_Jim]

Which indicates that he has some sort of stake in this,

I fear for "The death of reason".

When people like sourpod insists on some sort of 'bogy' man explanation for the way something like IR works the next time he'll call for witches to be burned ...

[_Jim]

Excerpted from "The Final Report"

(a) FLIR Testing and Analysis. Virtually the only evidence cited by those claiming government agents fired shots into the complex on April 19, 1993, is the FLIR videos recorded by the FBI Nightstalker aircraft from approximately 10:42 a.m. to 12:41 p.m. on that day. In fact, however, this evidence strongly supports the conclusion that no agent of the United States fired a shot on April 19.

The FLIR tapes show 57 flashes, emanating principally from alleged Davidian positions inside or on top of the complex. Eighteen of the flashes occur on the back side of the complex, with some occurring around government vehicles that were operating near the complex. During the past three years, representatives of the Davidians and several independent experts retained by the media and Congress have concluded that gunfire could have caused or did cause these flashes. The FBI and its experts have claimed that the flashes are reflections or “glint” coming from debris scattered in and around the complex.

The Office of Special Counsel retained two teams of experts to analyze the FLIR tapes from April 19. Working with the United States district court judge in the civil litigation brought by some of the Davidians and their families against the United States government, the Office of Special Counsel and its expert, Vector Data Systems (U.K.) Ltd., conducted a field test of FLIR technology at Fort Hood, Texas on March 19, 2000. The purpose of the test was to identify the thermal signature, if any, that gunfire and debris would leave on a FLIR recording.

The Office of Special Counsel conducted the test under a protocol agreed to and signed by both the attorneys and experts for the government and the attorneys and experts for the Davidians and their families. The protocol identified the FLIR equipment, the weapons, and the other conditions that would best approximate the scene at Waco in 1993.

Based on a detailed analysis of the shape, duration and location of the 57 flashes noted on the 1993 FLIR tapes, and a comparison of those flashes with flashes recorded on the March 2000 FLIR test tape, Vector Data Systems (U.K.) Ltd., concluded with certainty that each of the flashes noted on the 1993 tapes resulted from a reflection off debris on or around the complex. These conclusions are supported by color photographs which show the reflective debris at the exact location of many of the flashes noted on the 1993 tapes.

Mrs. Lena Klasén, a second independent expert retained by the Office of Special Counsel, concluded that thermal activity caused by human movement or motion did not exist near or around the area of the flashes noted on the FLIR tapes. She further concluded that photographs taken during the tear gas insertion show no people at or near the points from which the flashes emanated. Mrs. Klasén also performed a three-dimensional analysis of the reflection geometry existing at the complex on April 19, 1993. This analysis accounted for the Nightstalker’s movement, the position of the FLIR sensor, and the changing angle of the sun. Based on this analysis, Klasén, like Vector, concluded that the flashes on the 1993 tapes were from debris. The FLIR test and the expert analyses prove conclusively that the FLIR tapes do not evidence gunfire directed at the Davidians from government positions. Copies of the Reports of the FLIR experts retained by the Office of Special Counsel are attached hereto as Appendices H and I.

[liberalnot]

i never did understand how clinton and reno got away with this. americans watched the residents burn on tv while they ate dinner. and, where was the aclu?

[_Jim]

Remember, my authorities misrepresent physics.

The Vector Data Systems report available here:

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/pdf/vds.pdf

IMAGERY ANALYSIS REPORT
THE EVENTS AT WACO
TEXAS
19 APRIL 1993
PREPARED FOR
THE US DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
AND
THE OFFICE OF SPECIAL COUNSEL
BY
Vector Data Systems

13 CONCLUSIONS

13.1 Background

On 9 September 1999, the Attorney General of the United States of America appointed Senator John C. Danforth to investigate certain events that occurred at the Mt. Carmel Compound in Waco, Texas on 19 April 1993. Immediately after his appointment, Senator Danforth established the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) to carry out this investigation. On 2 December 1999, VDS (UK) was engaged by the OSC and the US District Court for the Western District of Texas to review FLIR imagery taken by an FBI Night Stalker aircraft flying over the Mount Carmel compound on 19 April 1993.

13.2 VDS (UK) Task

VDS (UK) was tasked to determine:

• Whether Government forces fired weapons
• Whether the start time of the fire could be identified on the FLIR
• Whether personnel could be seen on the ground

13.3 Imagery Examined by VDS (UK)

• Examined 4 FLIR tapes and 3 duplicate tapes from the FBI Night Stalker
• Examined hand-held air-to-ground imagery taken by the FBI and relevant to the task
• Examined ground imagery and press coverage and relevant to the task
• Took into account the results of the FLIR trial held at Fort Hood on 19 March 2000

13.4 Master Event List

In addition to 37 instances reported as gunfire-related incidents by the Davidians’ experts, VDS (UK) identified a further 20 instances of similar, but unreported, anomalous thermal activity on the FLIR tapes. These 57 incidents were tabulated and each incident was assessed individually. A review of ground video imagery of a Government helicopter in flight was also conducted.

Although tasked only to determine whether Government forces fired weapons, we included a full analysis of possible Davidian gunfire for both completeness and comparative purposes. Detailed exploitation of the FLIR imagery, together with comparative analysis of the collateral imagery, and of muzzle flash and debris reflection identified during the FLIR trial, was undertaken at our facility in Peterborough, England over the period 4 January to 5 May 2000.

13.5 Analysis

The FLIR videos were viewed to observe individual frames and determine significant features of each thermal event, the fire and for sightings of personnel. A comparative assessment was undertaken and all of the available FLIR imagery was used, not only the frames finally selected for illustrations to this report. Collateral imagery (ground & air) was utilised in comparative analysis with the FLIR, using a variety of software and imagery exploitation techniques. Following the FLIR Trial at Fort Hood, we compared the results from that with our assessments in order to reach final conclusions.

13.6 Alleged Government Gunfire

We were unable to identify any gunfire, either from Government forces or from Davidians, from either the FLIR or other collateral imagery available to us. We concluded that the thermal events and the alleged sighting of a person detailed in the Master Event List were all caused by either Passive Solar Specular Reflection, or by Active Thermal Reflection; with the remainder due to falling and/or wind-blown debris.

Each thermal event was described and attributed in the Master Event List and we provided our analysis of individual events together with illustrations to explain the causes of these thermal events.

The supposed gunfire emanating from the helicopter was assessed to be visible light energy reflection from the helicopter cockpit canopy.

13.7 Time Of The Fire

Our determination of the first outbreak of fire indicated on the FLIR imagery was at 12:07:43 on the second floor of the Red/White corner. A further fire outbreak occurred at 12:08:26 at the cafeteria /kitchen entrance and we provided our analysis and illustrations of the outbreak of fire.

13.8 Personnel

We concluded that throughout the morning of 19 April 1993, no persons were seen, on imagery available to us, until 12:10:50. After 12:10:50, numerous personnel (assumed to be Government personnel by their actions) attended the fire and were clearly visible on the FLIR, despite the relatively high ambient temperature. These personnel were also seen on collateral imagery. We provided our analysis and illustrations to support the analysis.

In the pdf version MANY photos and diagrams are presented, but, of course, my authorities misrepresent physics which is why all these "cited" authorities have been drummed out of their respective professional societies and organizations ... NOT!

[MeekOneGOP]

bumpity bumpity ! . . .

[_Jim]

sourpod says my authorities misrepresent physics.

THAT'S the first time EVER someone has made that statement my direction.

Here's part of one of the works he couldn't accept by a man who initially fostered a missile as the source for TWA800's crash:

Debunking the Waco FLIR

(c) 2001 Ian Williams Goddard

The 51-day standoff in Waco, Texas between members of the Branch Davidian sect and federal agents ended tragically when the Mount Carmel Center burned to the ground, leaving over 70 of its inhabitants dead. Before and during the fire an aircraft circled overhead with a heat detecting FLIR (forward-looking infrared) video camera. The documentaries Waco: the Rules of Engagement [1] and Waco: A New Revelation [2] produced by Michael McNulty popularized the claim that the FLIR recorded gunshots being fired into Mt Carmel before and during the fire.

What is the evidence of gunfire on the Waco FLIR video?

Bright flashes that appear on the ground and on the roof of Mt Carmel. However, when the Waco FLIR was run through the VIPER, a computer program that detects gunshots on FLIR, [3,4] no gunshots were found because the flashes are not like gunshots. [5] Additionally, expert analyses have shown that Waco flashes are thermal reflections on visible reflective debris. [6-8] These scientific analyses have not deterred proponents who continue to promote the claim that the flashes are gunfire.

There is MORE including some math, technical figures (e.g. the length of 'duration' of a plume from a rifle shot) and animated examples PLUS video excerpts at Ian's web page devoted to this analysis:

http://iangoddard.net/waco.htm

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

REMEMBERING THE DEAD - RESEARCH WACO
WACO 2/17/00 to current
WACO 9/13/99 to 2/16/00
WACO 7/28/99 to 9/12/99
WACO BACK THEN
WACO TIMECLOCK
WACO TIMELINE
CARLOS GHIGLIOTTI
HOLE IN THE BUNKER AND FIREBALL RESEARCH

[_Jim]

I have another authority who I'm sure misrepresents physics.

I inquired as to what his background was - and this 'ol boy has his Master's Degree in physics so this author is qualified to misrepresent even more in the field of physics.

From: http://www.ntskeptics.org/2000/2000may/may2000.htm

The big lie (Debunking 'claims' about the FLIR used in Waco showing gunmen and gunfire)

by John Blanton

This is not about claims of the paranormal or even about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof. It is about people believing what they want to believe in the face of contrary evidence. It is about people putting aside good judgement and critical thinking and allowing their personal preferences to dictate what is true and what is not. As such, it is rightly a topic for discussion by the skeptics.

The siege and fiery end of the Branch Davidian compound near Waco seven years ago has been a point of controversy ever since. Apologists for the Davidians have maintained the members were innocent victims of an overzealous government. Some have gone so far as to claim the final assault by the government was a calculated move to murder those inside.

One making such a claim was attorney Linda Thompson, who shortly after the fire distributed a video titled Waco: The Big Lie. Scenes and narration in the video attempt to convince the viewer that government tanks using flame throwers torched the building, causing those inside to burn to death.

Professor Ray Eve at the University of Texas at Arlington was called in as a consultant by the attorney for Cathy Schroeder, who was one of the surviving Davidians prosecuted by the government. During the course of his work on the case, Dr. Eve obtained a copy of the video, and he gave it to former NTS President Joe Voelkering for examination.

Joe, who has since died, operated a business investigating aviation accidents and preparing presentations of evidence for court cases. Those who continue to delude themselves will continually find unexpected surprises during cross-examination, and as a result Joe developed a keen sense for putting aside personal preferences and seeing only what the evidence showed.

I viewed the tape, as well, and Joe described to me what was going on. He pointed out the places where severe editing of the tape had placed events out of chronological order to best support the story Linda Thompson wanted to tell. He also pointed out places where large flashes of light were described as flames from the tank (really an armored engineering vehicle). Closer examination showed these flashes were associated with pieces of siding or wall board from the building flashing in the sun.

Others were not so critical in viewing Linda Thompson's video. Apparently Timothy McVeigh watched the video a number of times and convinced himself that the government had murdered the Davidians. This is thought to be part of his motivation for killing 168 people two years later.

More recently writer Mike McNulty has produced a documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagement. While the story line of Rules of Engagement is decidedly anti-government, it goes beyond offering sympathy for the Davidians. A press release states it "is a shocking film which says that the FBI machine-gunned Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas and committed numerous other rights violations there." The press release was related to the announcement in 1998 that the film had been nominated for an Academy Award. Siskel and Ebert gave it "two thumbs up," and it "was named one of the year's best films in The Los Angeles Times, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the San Francisco Chronicle, L.A. Weekly and the St. Paul Pioneer Press."

McNulty's conclusions regarding the machine-gunning of innocents seem to hang on his interpretation of FLIR (Forward-Looking Infra-Red) video captured by a reconnaissance aircraft flying overhead at the end of the siege. Flashes of light in the vicinity of the building are perceived as muzzle flashes from automatic and other small arms fire by government agents. In fact, a consultant shown analyzing the FLIR imagery is not circumspect in his statements. He uses phrases similar to "Here we see gunfire toward the kitchen area" and "This is a two-second burst from an automatic weapon."

McNulty is no Linda Thompson. When two NTS members participated in the taping of a McCuistion TV program about the siege recently he was there and repeated the shooting allegations in language less strong than he used in the video. He even had praise for the agents who took part in the initial raid, including Robert White, who was wounded that day and was on the McCuistion show with him.

The NTS has subsequently obtained a copy of the Rules of Engagement video, and at the April 2000 meeting we showed the portions illustrating the purported gunfire. I have some previous experience with FLIR technology and gave my interpretation of what we were seeing. Here is a little background.

FLIR is a remarkable technology. It enables seeing in the dark for all practical purposes. Infra-red film is sensitive to what is called "near infra-red." This is electromagnetic energy with wavelengths just longer than red in the visible spectrum. What IR film sees is very hot objects or reflected solar IR. In contrast, FLIR sees objects that are barely warm. This electromagnetic energy is low energy and is called "far infra-red."

In a laboratory demonstration once I switched off the lights and viewed the imagery on a video monitor (which is what you have to do, since the FLIR just produces digitized images). There was no practical difference between lights on and lights off. Everything in the room showed up to some extent, since everything was about room temperature. People produce remarkable IR images. Certain areas of the face and other exposed skin show up lighter because they are warmer. Clothing is darker because it is closer to room temperature. Cold objects are very dark. Place your hand on a surface and remove it. The outline of you hand shows due to the residual warmth.

Outside, the imagery mostly shows the effects of solar warming and residual warmth. Objects that absorb IR readily also readily emit it. The black lettering on the Wal Mart truck driving by showed up clearly in the imagery. A construction worker's cigarette was a bright beacon.

I did not retain any of the imagery from my FLIR project, but I do have a shot from a Texas Instruments Web page (see Figure 1). The picture shows a highway and railroad bridge north of Dallas. The shot was made in the daytime, when the sun was warming exposed surfaces. Steel structures are hot and show very bright in the image. Bridge piers are shaded and show up dark. I have reversed white and black in this image, because the FLIR operators produced the original in reverse mode, showing hot as dark. The black rectangles were injected into the imagery by a target tracking system to show the operator the tracking points. They show up black here, but they were white in the original.

Figure 1. FLIR image from a missile seeker From the Texas Instruments (now Raytheon) Web site

Other imagery I have dealt with showed automobiles, tanks, and other vehicles, and here is the important point. You can tell by looking at the tires of a car or truck or the treads of a tank whether the vehicle has been moving. The tires and treads are warm and show up brighter.

In the Rules of Engagement video the tank treads show up brighter. The FLIR was sensitive enough to show the extra warmth. In the siege video no shooters show up. "Gunfire" erupts from a patch of ground, supposedly directed at the Davidian's building, and we don't see anybody doing the shooting. The FLIR that is sensitive enough to show warm tank treads does not show a warm (98F) person lying on the ground. More so, there is a two-second burst of automatic weapon fire, and we don't see a stream of hot bullets. A gun barrel that should be too hot to touch does not even register.

Surviving Davidians are now suing the US government for the wrongful deaths of their friends, and they had planned to use the FLIR imagery from the aircraft as evidence. In its defense, the government conducted tests at Fort Hood using similar FLIR equipment plus real gunfire and real shooters.

The results of these tests are now beginning to come in, and it does not look good for the Davidians. The new video shows shooters where there are shooters, and it shows flashes like those in the earlier video where there are no shooters. Science may provide the answer to what has been wild speculation up to now.

In the meantime, Mike McNulty has produced another video, Waco: A New Revelation. We have not seen it yet, but you can get additional information from a Web site devoted to it at www.anewrevelation.com.

It seems everybody has an opinion one way or the other in this matter, and here is mine: Rather than submit to a raid by the AFT and to the surrender of their weapons and rather than face arrest on felony weapons charges, the Davidians chose to shoot it out with the feds. For 51 days they held off the inevitable, knowing the government forces would not attack because of the presence of the children. Finally, when the government did force the issue (in a rather stupid and clumsy manner), the Davidians torched their own compound and killed themselves (with some exceptions) and all of the children. Sometimes the truth is as simple as that.

Oh - and he's worked in industry in the field of both optics *and* IR so he's qualified to misrepresent items in those fields too ...

[sauropod]

Quite frankly, your supposition and your posts are male bovine fecal effluvia.

I own WTROE and WANR. WANR clearly shows infrared shots from weapons from the Gubbermint sources that are in no way "solar reflections."

Also, Underpants Jim, so you know, I hold both a BSME and a MSME. This is not a moron you are talking to. Plus, i have had quite a bit of experience analyzing 1st Gen FLIR footage through a DTV.

[sauropod]

More male bovine fecal effluvia. Nothing in what he has described wrt FLIR imagery invalidates what McNulty has documented.

You are grasping at straws.

[sauropod]

You lie.

What is on WANR is not due to reflected solar energy on glass. It would not repeat the way it does on the tape if that were true.

So, Underpants Jim, have you seen WANR or not?

[harpseal]

I also followed it at the time and I do remember but the venom gets worse every day.

[Fraulein]

What happened at Waco was a total disgrace. Absolutely shameful. And not to mention UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It is a dark moment in this country's history.

[AAABEST]

When people like sourpod insists on some sort of 'bogy' man explanation for the way something like IR works the next time he'll call for witches to be burned ...

As I said, you're pretty good with your facts _Jim, and you're a tech minded guy, which is why I'm a little taken aback and slightly disappointed with the above comment.

I've worked extensively with IR. The expaination I heard - something about "reflections" - was total nonsense. IR (whether it's red or white) doesn't distinquish light at all. Light leaves no signature whatsoever, only heat does. Even a piker knows this.

Now one might argue that what showed up wasn't "automatic" fire, or even gunfire. However, I saw that clip a while back. The man featured was certainly pointing his weapon at something and the signature we saw was certainly not "reflections", as was exaplained to us. There's a possibility that it wasn't gunfire, but there also is a distinct possibilty that it was. "Your" side brings discredit upon itself when it claims that there is no possibilty that it was gunfire.

Which begs the question, why would the person giving the explaination feel the need to BS us, and do it so poorly? Well it's possible he wasn't sure of his conclusions and "agenda-tized" his answer, or worse, he was sure of his conclusions and hid the truth. Maybe he's just silly enough to think that light (as opposed to heat) leaves an IR signature.

This is a microcosm of why we are where we are today, with nothing resolved. Too many agendas, not enough science.

[AAABEST]

I wrote that the above long post before I read _Jim's long post, because I was going out of "my comments".

_Jim you can't get upset by people who are getting their science from those with an agenda when you get your science from those with an agenda.

[Iwo Jima]

My question is "why?" Why did the government do this? Of course, many of the worst actions were to cover up earlier misdeeds, but I'm not talking about that. There was obviously some big secret objective that was at the root of this entire fiasco, and I can't figure out what it could possibly have been.

Some have said that it was all about funding -- that the BATF needed a big "Showtime" and publicity to convince Congress to maintain or increase its funding. I don't believe that was the primary reason for an operation this large and nefarious.

No, there was some major goal sought to be achieved, but for the life of me I can't figure out WHAT????

[MeekOneGOP]

With all the talk about Bush's lack of diplomacy over Iraq I would say Waco represents the worst lack of diplomacy in American History...

I'd say ! bttt . . .

[sauropod]

What I saw was repeated flashes that are consistent with the muzzle flash from a crew-served weapon.

I have spent a lot of time analyzing 1st gen FLIR video footage on a project in the early 1990s. It ain't at all what Vector says it was.

BTW, Vector is a beltway bandit company that does analysis and writes reports for a living. I have dealt with them before. What impact do you think the contract funder has on the outcome of the report?

Burning witches indeed! I look at pig entrails ;-).

[wita]

Regardless of perceived "facts" on both sides of the issue, the truth will be told and no one will be saying "I told you so" when it happens. There will be much begging for mercy. That is my opinion on the aftermath as it is yet to happen.

I don't have all the facts, and you don't either. I have my opinion you seem to be at odds with the majority of those who think the government owed a little bit more to the folks who lived at Mt. Carmel, than they got, and after the lead in scenario at Ruby Ridge, Waco smelled like another attempt by law enforcement agencies gone wild, to justify the unjustifiable.

I think we can be grateful for the terrible results. Had those brave souls at Waco and Ruby Ridge not fought back even an idiot could devine the future Waco's and Ruby Ridges that lay in store. As it was, the cost to law enforcement was too much and the press was even worse, and rightly so. It is now history not to be forgotten, and I promise I won't say I told you so.

Waco is pure and simple one of the finest examples in this country, of government run-a-muck. It is an action that never needed to happen, it was an action that once started, should have stopped far short of where it did. These are irrefutable facts, and will have to stand until the TRUE tale is told by the living and the dead.

My overall opinion, is a huge government leadership failure from the top down, coupled with some serious mistakes in judgement, sort of the results of the huge leadership failure. Couple that, with a law enforcement mentality, and you have the Waco scenario without the proper controls to bring it to a safe conclusion, and then starts the blame game, with the living, uncharged, unencarcerated having the clear advantage.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!