Students put their own spin on downloading music

USA today ^ | 4.20.03 | Jefferson Graham

[freepatriot32]

LOS ANGELES

[who_would_fardels_bear]

The pro-piracy argument seems to be: We're here, live with it!

Well the government and all their favorite lobbyists are also here and they can legislate dongles, or embedded serial numbers in chips for user tracking, or increased access to ISP information with use of TIA and other monstrosities.

You'll have a hard time justifying a pro-piracy position on ideological grounds. And without accounting for government reaction to piracy, you'll have a tough time justifying it on pragmatic grounds as well.

[agarrett]

There is no real need for new rules. You must must must show diminished value. Show me how peniless college students would have purchased these songs. There must be a remedy for the damage shown.

  Please tell me you're not a lawyer! This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard.

  First off, "penniless college students" are still college students. We may safely assume that they will not be permanently penniless, and may further assume that they may yet buy music when they have the cash. Secondly, even at the current moment, these "penniless college students" are paying tuition, meals, etc. They have money, in other words, they just choose not to spend it on the CDs. The diminished value is both immediate and evident.

  As many people on this thread have pointed out, the argument is economic, not legal. Legally, it's theft. Period. But the economics don't work out so easily. The cost of copying has plummeted to 0, or nearly so. The cost of legal copies has remained artificially high - as the record companies settlement on claims of price fixing shows. Therefore people begin copying. As it spreads, the cost of the penalty for getting caught also lowers, as most people around you are doing the same thing, which further lowers the cost of copying, spreading it further.

  I believe that we are now past the tipping point on this issue. The RIAA doesn't think so, and they're trying to raise the penalty cost through these lawsuits. They need outrageous damage awards, though, to bring the penalty cost high enough to actually get people to stop. And, frankly, the damages they're requesting are probably too outrageous for people to accept - self defeating as it were.

Drew Garrett

[Amerigomag]

performance halls pay anual fees to the RIAA.

No kidding. And we hold up the IRS and the American mafia as the pinnicle of corruption and coersion

RIAA could teach the children of Rio a thing or two about coercive begging.

[longtermmemmory]

if it was really "theft" as the RIAA poses then we would be having a discussion about CRIMINAL law not CIVIL law. If you are a prosecutor you work to convict. If you are a civil lawyer you are seeking relief. Relief is typically defined in terms of financial compensation. What is the compensation sought? If these students go into bankruptcy court the who claim evaporates.

Perhaps if you identify your law school we could evaluate your selection of legal arguments.

[discostu]

You might not have a problem with it, but I think one of the saddest things that could be said about our generation would be that we were the ones that took music out of people's lives. If the national music industry falls apart the local music scenes will become smaller, it's exposure to music that makes people decide to make music. If the industry crumbles people wo't be exposed to music so regularly and some will manage to avoid it all together, then fewer people will decide to make music. Our generation will be dead by then, but that's a lousy gift to leave the next ones. I've always felt it's our duty to leave the place better than we found it, we can't do that by taking music away from the world.

[longtermmemmory]

I really believe a open download system would be far more profitable. Even at 25 cents a download that if the three million people on kazza download one son a day that is $750000.00 a day times 365 days a year is 27,375,000.00. Is that chiken feed to the music industry? yes. BUT cheep access would yeld profits that are going lost now to lesser quality versions. It would also make a market for financially unviable specialty songs. (just ask Dr. Demento)

[discostu]

Problem is when you can download it for free why download it for a quarter? On top of that if the price is that low the overhead of processing the credit cards (remember credit card companies get paid in both directions, greatest scam ever) will eat your margins. Actually your number is chickenfeed to the music industry, according to VH1 ( http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/vh1_all_access/64070/episode_wildcard.jhtml?wildcard=/shows/dynamic/includes/wildcards/all_access/rocks_richest/aux.jhtml&event_id=864498 )the Rolling Stones (#2 grossing act of 2002, Paul McCartney was #1) made 44 million this year (Paul made 72 million, The Donnas made enough to buy some shoes at Saks), now that's across the board and mostly on tour and memorabilia and if there's one thing the Stones have learned in the last 40 years it's how to print money. The music industry deals in BIG money (an album that goes gold hauls in around 9 million), but it also has a huge overhead (artists are expensive, lawyers are expensive, studios are really expensive, promotional material isn't cheap) and a complex distribution system. To give you an idea how much it costs to make music Jimmy Buffett came in at number 15 with 17.6 million and had to split costs of his tour (and therefore profits) with Corona.

Actually there's an excellent market for less popular music (none of the stuff Dr. D played was produced by or for him, it was already published stuff that he manged to find), they just don't spend as much promoting it they rely on off standard radio shows and word of mouth, also they don't print as much to start with and don't pay the artists as much.

The biggest problem with the industry right now is that the big dogs have gone tharn, they're not willing to take risks anymore. All you have to do is look at the pop charts, it's all people on at least their 4th album, popstars are supposed to be 1 hit to 3 albums. It's a high rotation section of the business but nobody is willing to put forth the money to fabricate the next big posterbait. On top of that the little guys have been gobbling up old established acts (if you like 70s and 80s heavy metal go to Spitfirerecords.com) which is giving them the funds to self publish and distribute (they used to work with big dogs on that which helped spread risk on marginal artists and allowed both to profit on suprise success).

Add to that easy piracy from the internet, a struggling economy and general disastifaction with the direction of the industry (only true music junkies like me realize how much great stuff is being published right now), and youve got an industry in deep doo-doo. Sadly they're focusing on the piracy when they should be focusing on the photogenic teenagers (the music sucks, but it's damned profitable) and getting their fingers back into the low end pie.

[freepatriot32]

what i was thinknig should happen is the artist that havethe songs that are getting downloaded from kazaa should set up a paypal account on their websites so that people that got the songs free from kazaa can donate mopney oto the artist or band directly i dont know why they havent starteddoingthat before now that way they dont haveto get al lthere royaltys passed through 10 or 15 middle men before they see it and get like 1 penny for every single sold i am sure the people that download the songs would mind giving the artist that made it a qaurter or dime if the like it enough on kazaa then everyone is happy that matter snad the iraa is cut out of the loop and will eventually go bankrupt s o it will be a win win situation for everyone

[MacDorcha]

and when are you charged for the transaction? how many people do you know who delete a song they want to hear again? all im saying, is it was a poor analogy

[MacDorcha]

aye, but if you borrow the book, you are bound to return it by the fees and rules there-in. you cant borrow an mp3, which is the point i was making.

[MacDorcha]

"For 25 cents a page you obtain a portion of a copyrighted work."

which, by law, you still cannot distribute freely without express consent of the author/ publicicst. you have a record for your own good only, at least, legally. now, yes, people do that, and it's really not that big of a problem, but you must think "who on earth would photocopy one page of a book hundreds of times and be fine with that?" people read the entire book, but they borrow it, and pay if it is late. they want the whole story, on the same token, people want to hear all the stuff they think is good from an artist. they can (for free, and no threat of late fee) take all they want, and never even pay the band they ripped off.

im sorry, but i was iffy on the whole thing, but the more people bring it up, the more i want something done about it. a free market is free from theft and deterance.

[BrooklynGOP]

aye, but if you borrow the book, you are bound to return it by the fees and rules there-in. you cant borrow an mp3, which is the point i was making.

That's right. However the analogy still fails, because by borrowing a book from a library you are eliminating a situation in which someone else can borrow that same book. Not so with a mp3. Take a a really thin book, use the library's copy machine to make a copy and then see if anyone carese to track and charge late fees for the copy you just made.

[Not Insane]

__You might not have a problem with it, but I think one of the saddest things that could be said about our generation would be that we were the ones that took music out of people's lives. __

I think your premise is wrong. Thanks to the same internet you think will destroy music, good jokes are emailed to millions of people in a matter of days. What do you think will happen when good music is discovered by some "average guy" in a bar in Maple Valley, Washington. He sends it to everyone he knows and the next thing you know, the whole world knows about it.

Good music in the future will be made more available to EVERYONE than it is now. And it will come from diverse communities that the current recording industry doesn't have the time nor inclination to tap.

Standard music biz marketing is SOOOOOO twentieth century.

[Not Insane]

_-It would also make a market for financially unviable specialty songs. (just ask Dr. Demento) __

I was able to get some ancient Firesign Theater off Kazaa that I couldn't even find in the record stores. Some of the mp3's had been recorded off VINYL!

[MacDorcha]

"That's right. However the analogy still fails, because by borrowing a book from a library you are eliminating a situation in which someone else can borrow that same book"

which is stealing. the analogy doesnt fail because it proves my point, not because it's an exact mirror of the situation.

[MacDorcha]

"Take a a really thin book, use the library's copy machine to make a copy and then see if anyone carese to track and charge late fees for the copy you just made. "

they may or may not care. but say you broke the machine, and got hundreds of copies of the book for 25 cents, and then gave everyone you knew a copy, and information on how to get several hundred more for 25 cents themselves. thats what the analogy is. you dont think it's complete because you arent taking into account the full aspect.

[MacDorcha]

"I think your premise is wrong. Thanks to the same internet you think will destroy music, good jokes are emailed to millions of people in a matter of days. What do you think will happen when good music is discovered by some "average guy" in a bar in Maple Valley, Washington. He sends it to everyone he knows and the next thing you know, the whole world knows about it. "

the problem with that, is although it shares the music faster... who gets paid to make music? musicians live off the royalties. take away the money, and the only thing they do is make it for the love of it; which, although honourable, gives no reason for any musician to share the music, because it then becomes a waste of time and a hassle.

[BrooklynGOP]

...which is stealing...

I assume you never taped anything off the radio?

[BrooklynGOP]

...which is stealing...

I assume you never taped anything off the radio?