France is Almost Finished: Why French gov't acts like a traitor to its old allies.

FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | Thursday, April 10, 2003 | By Guy Milliere

[Beck_isright]

"Do you know the weight of the fundamentalists in the Shiite majority ? Then who is able to counter them?"

Yes, I do. It's called the Kurdish and Sunni groups in the north. Have you ever been to Iraq? Turkey? Kuwait? You would be quite suprised at how much of a desire there will be to comprimise knowing that there are Americans in power at this time to manage and control the situation. The initial goals of the INC leader to structure an Indian style democracy are promising.

"You fail to see how islamism has earned power due to 3 parameters :

- The oppression of the shiites by Saddam, the betrayal of 91."

In 91 our government made a mistake. We are in the process of redeeming ourselves in their eyes now. This is a non-starter.

"- Saddam tried to play with them and gain their support.

A nother non-starter and irrelevant issue.

"- In these early days, until the americans organize a police, in may places, the only authority who's able to discipline the looters are the ayatollahs."

That is already a non-starter and bogus. The ayatollahs are supporting our efforts in their mosques. The only Islamicists we must concern ourselves with are the Iranian radicals who are attempting to cross the border and create an Islamic militia. This will be stifled in the weeks to come. We don't even have the entire nation occupied and the worry warts are out in force.

"Next you have several minorities as the chaldean christians - already accused of being both pro-american and past pro-Saddam (see the contradiction and the level of propaganda) by the islamists."

And the Assyrians, and the Turks, and the Kurds. This is an issue that will be resolved over time, not 5 minutes nor 5 days. Let the new government organize over the next two years before passing judgement on how this and other minority issues are handled.

"The old baathist nomenclatura who still hold some keys and experience of the iraqian administration - knowledge of the country and the required formation."

Yes, and on lower levels, some Ba'athists will be used in the interim after they have been vetted. If any are suspected in participating in crimes against other Iraqis, they will be handled as were many Nazis post WWII.

"The kurds who won't accept to be spoiled again. Which will also cause tensions with Turkey and Iran."

Having been in Turkey, I understand their concerns. The reality is that the Kurds to spite the Turks and Iran will cooperate with the foundation of a multi-ethnic democratic Iraq. This will enrage the Turks who will be powerless because the new Free Iraq will be guranteed US protection for decades to come as long as they want and need it.

" Thus I frankly doubt, this will be as smooth a transition as you probably imagine."

I never said it will be "smooth". It will take time. There will be terrorism. We must smite the Iranian-Syrian radical Islam cartel of terror; without French help.

"I also doubt that you won't need a broader international support one way or another."

We have all the help we need with the major issues inside Iraq. Kuwait will be a huge help. The UK understands what needs to be done. The French, Belgians, Germans, and Russians can all go pound sand.

"You will need the UN to some extent, and also some diplomacy with arab neighbours."

We need the UN for humanitarian assistance, that's it. No running of government functions, no assistance rebuilding squat. They have proven their uselessness in the problems with North Korea, Rwanda, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Chad, Israel-Lebanon, Libya, etc, etc...
The diplomacy was just demonstrated for the last month. We asked nicely, then we kicked butt. The Arabs comprehend and respect the concept of "peace through strength". Twenty years later the Eurosocialists have yet to figure that out. Many Arab states will cooperate and work with us. Those that do not will get a deck of playing cards printed up.

"Simply one thing americans fail to see, we're not in 1960 anymore. You can not attack France without colaterral damage at the European scale where economies are interdependant anyway."

Yes, thus there will be more unilateral agreements for trade, etc. than before. Europe, at least the "old Europe" is about to pay for not recognizing the changes in the geopolitical situation regarding the U.S. since 9-11.

"That's why France is not as irrelevant as you imagine. Economic war ? Then you will face Brussel and the WTO."

One minor issue you and many Euros overlook; the WTO and Brussels DIE without the U.S. If we withdraw, the world goes into convulsions, but we instantly get bilateral agreements with those nations that wish to play ball with us. The WTO is only important as entity as long as we participate. Remember that major fact.

"France irrelevant concerning anti-terrorism ?"

Yes, as long as they continue to sell arms to our enemies after we demand France stops.

"OK then watch the figures. EU-USA trade proportion. Or even France-USA % only. You probably need to update your knowledge, France is still #4. Today even a few points of trade can not be removed with simple words and without consequences."

Perhaps, beyond the ancedotes which are flying, you will realize this when the annual figures are updated. There is an active boycott with many state and local governments divesting themselves of investments in French corporations. This trend will continue as long as Chirac parades around the world snubbing the U.S.A. Your unemployment rate will crack 20% before the "people" will figure out that trade with the U.S. has been impacted. There is the key figure that I am watching. Until then, I'll just smirk as the snotty frogs watch their economy crumble. The "relationships" touted by so many in Europe are about to feel an earthquake. Those nations that worked with us and supported our efforts in Iraq are about to be rewarded. Those that opposed us are going to feel what it is like to be as isolated as East Germany was in 1979.

V

[JudyB1938]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but wanted to reply to your comment about feeling the hatred in Mexico. I have a really nice, nice neighbor who just happens to be an illegal. He told me that it is NOT SAFE for ANY American to go to Mexico. If they don't kill you, they will rob you if they get the chance. He is a good Christian, and I could see the pain on his face as he was telling the actual fact of today's climate with Mexicanos.

Moral: Don't go into the Arabian Desert (where all those tourists are disappearing) and don't go to Mexico (you could disappear there, too).

[Im Your Huckleberry]

You think the same thing isn't happening here albeit we're a few years behind France's exponential curve?

The U.S. with it's mutlicultural bulls- and the P.C. takeover of the cultural dialogue is in the same position. Nothing is being done about immigration here. How are we any different than any of the western european nations? We're still allowing virtually unchecked immigration from across these Muslim nations - nothing has changed since Sept. 11, 2001...not one thing, in regards to immigration control or border crackdowns.

We're in store for the same fate. Because most people don't "get it" when it comes to the Islamic threat.

[happygrl]

I have read with interest your posts on this thread; you are our one resource on France, its politics and its people. You are one gutsy guy to brave the bashing and one smart man to counter all the arguments. It is certainly an education to read these threads. One issue that has not been satisfactorally dealt with is the reproduction issue, not only for the French, but for all of Europe. When are you Europeans going to start making more babies ?

A second comment is this: you have seen from the French-bashing the depth of feeling here. Chirac has done more damage than you can imagine. Believe me, it is that bad. You write from a stance of an ally, but that is not how France is perceived anymore. It is all very sad considering the legacy of Lafayette and the gift of the Statue of Liberty. Perhaps it is best to be honest and start a new chapter of relations. Some counter-actions are needed, such as the kind of citizen to citizen overtures initiated during the Cold War between Russian citizens and ourselves.

[happygrl]

You've made good points regarding leadership; Tony Blair will be remembered for his strength in that regard. The French have the capacity for leadership, but I don't believe a leader has yet arisen who has the vision for the future and the necessary reponses to the serious situation in which France finds itself. That, of course, is directly related to the depth and seriousness of the discourse about the issues with which the French thus far have engaged themselves. Until the discussion can be freed of the "radioactive" shibboeths of culture, civilization, and religion, that discourse will not take place. That was the brilliance of Pim Fortyn; he opened up the political discussion.

With regard to demographics, the attitude of Europeans toward this problem does contradict your notion that Americans, not Europeans, care about money. The desire to propagate and approach the future with optimism is the mark of a society which sees its wealth not merely in material possessions, but in its progeny and the continuation of its civilization through them. The role of the government in supporting families can be either through direct welfare, which as you point out, encourages the production of progeny as an income-maximizing effect, or through the tax system, which provides allowances indirectly to those with children. That is the approach of the US, and the middle class here is still yet reproducing itself, regardless of race or ethnicity. It is the values of the bougeousie, contrary to leftist cannards, that the nation should encourage and support.

Finally, I must steer the conversation again back to religious faith. Your post on another thread commented on a resurgence of the practicals of Christian religion such as baptism, and so forth, while distancing these practices from some of the American modes such as televangelists, to whose antics even I would give an eyeroll. We have many flavors of the expression of Christian faith in this country; that is one of the more flamboyant displays, but not necessarily the most typical. That is far too flamboyant for Europeans, and for many North Americans as well, but the strength of belief it gives evidence to is widespread. My observation of Europeans' faith/belief is that is is more of a cultural-national-civil mode, perhaps more comparable to the liberal churches of the US. I remain convinced that the only adequate counter and response to the insurgency of Islam in Europe is a vital Christian faith which rediscovers the message of the "Good News" of the Gospels. This message (sin and redemption) is so at odds with the predominate philosophy of modernity that the reflexive response is embarrassment. But it is the message that the individual is worth redeeming by God which is the basis for the elevation of the individual's personhood and the protection of the individual's rights from the power of the state. Our rights are received from God; the purpose of the state is to protect those rights. Without an understanding of who man is, the state uses its accrued power to use man as a tool for its own ends. It also places itself in the position of striving to meet all of man's needs in a utopian way. Of course when I say "the State" I am really referring to the use of the power of the state by men; the State has no sentient will.

Sorry to preach at you, but this understanding of the origin of political man is so fundamental that without it, one cannot begin to frame the the questions which need to be posed.

[bert]

"France was the most prosperous nation in Europe. Russia in 1780 had 24 million inhabitants, Italy 17 million, Spain 10 million, Great Britian 9 million, Prussia 8.6 million, Austria7.9 million, Belgium 2.2 million, Portugal 2.1 million, Sweeden 2 million, Holland 1.9 million,Denmark 800,000, Norway 700,000 France 25 million. Paris was the largest city in Europe with some 650,000 inhabatants, the best-educated and most excitable in Europe." Will Durant The Age of Napoleon

France has never achieved the status it held at the eve of the French Revolution. It has been down hill ever since.

[Mr. Silverback]

Paging MadIvan!

Yes, I know it's over two weeks old, but I just came across it.

[Jumper]

I disagree with the belief of this writer that Islamic/Moslums will constitute a majority in 20 years time in France. This type of calculation is based on looking back at the population growth of the past 20 years, however, no group could possibly increase their population at this accelerated rate... unless millions of more Arabs more to France - something that will not happen.

I can agree with the line of reasoning that nothing good can come from France towards the USA until they feel sufficient pain... and their economy is crashing!