And there is the WHOLE reason for the coming of Christ. Any who COME to the Father THROUGH HIM of their own free will, can be saved. No matter what they did in their past, no matter how severe the sin, they can be saved through Christ. Through Christ we are all offered salvation, but we have to WANT it, to really want it with all our hearts.
There is no "physical force" that is going to march us into the Baptism, or make us ask for forgiveness. It is there for the taking, but ONLY when we, of our own free will ask for it.
Why would that even be neccessary if all things were pre-destined? Why would we ever pray for sinners, or try to help those who don't know the Lord, know him? Why even try if they are already destined to eternal damnation? My understanding is we should NEVER give up on those people, but should continue to try to bring them to God, to show them salvation through Jesus Christ.
You explained it in layman terms.
I'm a horrible writer and have a hard time conveying my thoughts in this medium. So again, thanks. (Hope I made sense.. but I think you have understood what I was trying to say :o)
There is no "physical force" that is going to march us into the Baptism, or make us ask for forgiveness. It is there for the taking, but ONLY when we, of our own free will ask for it.
Why would that even be neccessary if all things were pre-destined? Why would we ever pray for sinners, or try to help those who don't know the Lord, know him? Why even try if they are already destined to eternal damnation? My understanding is we should NEVER give up on those people, but should continue to try to bring them to God, to show them salvation through Jesus Christ.
Absolutely right.
These issues cut to the heart of the debate...and ones that I have yet to see addressed by the "predestination..no free will" crowd.
I'm a horrible writer and have a hard time conveying my thoughts in this medium.
I don't think so.
I've debated this subject for many years in various online forums, and it seems to me you have an accurate view of what Bible teaches...a good grasp of the fallacies in the opposing side's arguments.... and your posts have been some of the most articulate and to the point that I've read in this thread.
What I see here is a total misunderstanding of the whole concept of how predestination, in light of God's Sovereignty, works:
There is no "physical force" that is going to march us into the Baptism, or make us ask for forgiveness. It is there for the taking, but ONLY when we, of our own free will ask for it.
You are right that God does not physically force you to accept Him. When one views all the scripture of how it God unfolds his plan, it is clearly much more wondrous! God, through the person of the Holy Spirit, works on our hearts. When that happens we see what total sinners we are. (We see that happening over and over again throughout the Bible, even to men we would consider "good men.") Once our heart is laid bare, we realize what a sordid state we live in. The Holy Spirit makes us so acutely aware of our sin that we feel drawn to Christ as the only way out of that sin. It is not what many say, that is we are robots or puppets. Just once the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart, or as the Bible says, calls us, we fell the overwhelming urge to accept Christ.
Like I asked Jorge in post 49 (which he never answered) Think back to the exact moment you accepted Christ. When you accepted Christ, was it comparable to a decision to buy a life insurance policy? I'll guess that your heart was laid bare, that the urge was so strong there was no way you could resist! You had no choice but to answer the call! How do I know this? It is written: Rom 8:30 - "And those he predestined, he also called."
Why would that even be necessary if all things were pre-destined? Why would we ever pray for sinners...
If there is free will, how can your prayers be effectual? If the sinner has free will, our prayers will not and cannot be effectual! God cannot, by the rule that Armenians set up, interfere, because it is free will that saves, not election! Don't you see the trap that is set here? Some will say the same about my crowd, that is, if it is predestined, what good will prayer do? The Bible shows God responding to our prayer through his plan! Think about it in the context of the Lords Prayer, "Thy will be done." And don't think that God doesn't want me to disciple just because I believe in the scriptural presentation of predestination. That is a false assumption. It is all the more important that I do so that I may reach the elect, as God's tool to share the truth of the Gospel!
Please read this verse, one of many that I have posted and explain how this demonstrates that we have free will. Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen,h aving been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
And please be intellectually honest. (as I am doing as I am reading through your excellent earlier post ;-)) Tell me exactly how this fits with free will. Again, show me where anything that sounds like free will used in the Gospel! Something that sounds like "and_________choose to believe in God, or using his free will/choice/understanding, he accepted Christ."
Many free willers try to twist scripture to say that God knew we would accept him and thus predestined us. But it clearly does not say that. Why, because either you accept that Bible as inerrant, or you don't. (If you don't let me know, that would be another fun debate!) That is an interpretation that is way out of whack with the truth that is presented! Why do I say this, because to reach this conclusion you must totaly change the order of the verses!
BTW Jorge, to answer you your post I've debated this subject for many years in various online forums, and it seems to me you have an accurate view of what Bible teaches...a good grasp of the fallacies in the opposing side's arguments.... and your posts have been some of the most articulate and to the point that I've read in this thread. Don't be to proud of your debating skills. What I see is the seagull method: You fly, in make a bunch of noise, leave a mess, but never answer any question that is asked of you. Several people have answered your questions, but your rolling of eyes, stomping of feet and hiding behind the phrase "that is inconsistent with scripture" and then not providing quotes is very tiresome. I will guess that on other boards people have just grown weary of this tactic, like I am doing, and just ignore your rantings.
Vets, ya'll provide more cohesive thoughts than Jorge, I find your comments stimulating. I hope you are giving mine just as much thought!