Scottish minister: God is sovereign over everything -- even war

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--The sovereignty of God as presented in the Book of Revelation should remind Christians that God is in control of all the events of history, including warfare, Scottish minister Eric Alexander noted in a two-sermon series at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Alexander, a Presbyterian minister, said Revelation 4-5 paint three pictures that should give believers assurance during uncertain times. The chapters unpack God's kingship, His guidance over the history of creation and the central act of history -- God's redemption of sinners in Jesus Christ, Alexander said.

"We are conscious that these are critical hours in which we live," he said at the Louisville, Ky., campus in mid-March. "We are aware of the question, 'Where is the hand controlling the events we are passing through?'

"The relevance of the Bible at such a time as this and the relevance of Revelation is that it takes us to this throne of God. It [Revelation] is not there to satisfy our curiosity, but to give us a perspective on the world in which we live and the whole of history, so that we are able to see it [history] from a different vantage point from the rest of the world."

The apostle John presents the throne as the central feature of his vision in Revelation 4, Alexander said. This is highly significant because the eternal kingship of God is evident by John's pointing out that the throne is constantly occupied.

John penned Revelation while suffering in exile on the island of Patmos, which Alexander described as "a kind of Alcatraz in the ancient world." Paul's audience -- the seven churches in Asia -- also were undergoing intense persecution. John shared his vision to encourage the churches and to remind them that God was still on the throne despite their suffering, he said.

Alexander recalled where he was when terrorists attacked America on Sept. 11, 2001 -- in the clubhouse at St. Andrews golf course in Scotland.

Alexander remembered how a fellow golfer reacted to the news after learning Alexander was a minister. The man's words echo the very thought that sometimes enters a believer's mind during seasons of suffering, he said.

"He said to me, 'I guess your God has gone for a holiday,'" Alexander said. "And that is the deep fear that lies even in the hearts of some trembling, faithful souls: 'Is God really on the throne?' And John clearly gives us the answer in the outset of his vision."

In Revelation 5, John's vision includes an angel holding a scroll. This scroll is the record of human destiny and divine purpose for the world, Alexander said. The scroll is both complete -- it contains no blank spaces -- and is sealed.

This points to the fact that, while every event in history is in God's hands, it is sealed from the sphere of human speculation or knowledge, Alexander said. It also shows that there is God-ordained purpose for every event in life and that all God's purposes in the world are a closed book to human beings.

"John weeps. It has made him deeply sad and the mystery of life is beginning to engulf him," he said.

Believers should note that John points to the climax of history in Revelation 5:6. The "Lamb standing, as if slain," is Christ, who is the key to history," Alexander said.

During times of war and suffering, Christians must look to the Lamb and take comfort in the fact that His purposes - even though mysterious from a human perspective - will not be thwarted, he said. This should lead Christians to worship God in awe and wonder, he added.

"That Lamb is the crucified, risen, exalted and now reigning Lord Jesus Christ," Alexander said. "He is the key to history, the key to life. Christ is the key to every mystery that life brings to us because He was slain and with His blood purchased a people for God.

"That is the central thing about the whole of history. It is the building of the church, which is the central element in history. When that work is done and when the church of Jesus Christ is complete, that is when God will bring down the curtain on the affairs of this sad world. May God help us that we may have that special view of the world which comes from dwelling near the throne."

First I agree.

There are not always answers for why we loose good people.. young people. But if "good" can come out of it, then they did not die in vain. We will never forget them. This War is not about revenge, but about doing the "right and just" thing.

Something that God commands we do. Which is what the original intent of this Minister from Scottlands article was all about.. so I guess we are getting back on track with your response on this thread. :o)

Here is an article and some scripture I found that are comforting as a Christian when facing war. Though we are attending a Presbyterian Church and have been for over a decade, this is from Dr. Charles Stanley who is a Baptist Minister that we watch on tv if I'm to sick to go to Church. He is just awesome. Let me know what you think of what he has written. It just "feels" so right to us. And his including scripture helps so much.

If you are ever at home on a Sunday sick, watch "In Touch Ministry". Or even visit their website at http://www.intouch.org/

We were led to his site by a friend at Church who has a husband with Parkinsons disease. Sometimes things are so severe they cannot attend Church, and they told us about Dr. Stanley. What a blessing it has been!!

Anyway.. I digress. Read on... and let me know what you thought.

Vets
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We are captivated by warfare. Many of us sit in our homes and watch images of battles currently taking place around the world. Unlike previous generations, we are able to watch wars as they actually happen. In addition, the purpose of this specific war is unusual: it is directed against a ruling regime, not a country’s people; it is a war to liberate oppressed citizens, not dominate their nation; it is a war that is bathed in prayer. Yes, this is a different type of war than the world has experienced in the past.

Even though many of us are only spectators of the physical battles waged, we too face warfare on a daily basis . . . spiritual warfare. This is a war fought in every nation and in every home, by every person around the world. However, it is not a losing battle or a hopeless cause. Just as the military uses proven combat strategies in war, we, too, can follow certain steps to achieve victory in our spiritual warfare.

Identify the Enemy
The first step in winning any war is the ability to accurately identify the enemy. Throughout history, it has been easy to recognize the enemies of freedom and humanity—for example, dictators who were responsible for the murder and persecution of thousands of people. Likewise, Scripture makes our spiritual enemy quite clear: Satan. In John 8:44, Jesus describes Satan as a murderer and a liar without truth.

The Devil desires to draw us away from God through deception, division, and destruction. We have to be aware that Satan often instigates those difficult trials and issues that we face throughout life. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12). My friend, Satan is a real enemy, and realizing this truth is the first step toward overcoming his tactics.

Be Fully Equipped for the Battle
In addition to clearly identifying the enemy, we must also be fully equipped for the battle. We understand that preparation, weaponry, communication, and transportation equipment are necessary to accomplish the goals of our military. Training and technology continue to improve so that we might have confidence in the ability of our armed services to protect our country. Likewise, God has equipped us to effectively resist Satan’s attacks. Ephesians 6:12 says that we should "put on the full armor of God, that [we] will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil." In the following verses, the apostle Paul uses the armor of Roman soldiers to symbolize the spiritual armor with which Christians should dress, as well.

The first piece we should put on is the belt of truth. (Ephesians 6:14) This means that we are to understand, believe, and walk in the truth of God’s Word. When we are focused on God’s truth, then we cannot be deceived by Satan’s lies.

Second, we are to dress in the breastplate of righteousness. (Ephesians 6:14) Just as the Roman solider used this piece to protect vital organs, we, too, should use it to protect our hearts—our emotions. The breastplate of righteousness defends us against being led by our feelings, such as doubt and fear, so that we can react to obstacles based solely on the truth of our relationship with God.

Third, we must strap on the sandals of peace. (Ephesians 6:15) This simply means that we can be ready to both stand firm and march forward, proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ against the onslaught of the Devil.

Fourth, we need to take up the shield of faith so that we "will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one" (Ephesians 6:16). Now, the shield that Paul describes here is not the small, round piece that you may be imagining. In fact, the Greek word for "shield" in this verse is actually translated "door." This is a gigantic shield that we can hide behind for protection against those fiery missiles of Satan—those thoughts of doubt and uncertainty that he throws at us. With our shield in place, we can have faith in the control and sovereignty of God, and deflect any destructive thoughts from the Devil.

Fifth is the helmet of salvation. (Ephesians 6:17) We must remember that the battle begins in our minds; therefore, we need protection against the temptations with which Satan is sure to attack us.

Finally, we should take up the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" (Ephesians 6:17). This sword is both a defensive and offensive weapon against the tactics of Satan. It is more powerful than any weapon of mass destruction because the Word of God pierces the human heart to bring about conviction, repentance, and transformed lives.

Now, someone might say, "Well, I know the Bible says I need to put on the armor of God, but how can I dress in something I can’t see or touch?" We need to remember who we truly are: we are physical beings, of course, but we are also spiritual beings. We have a soul and a spirit that will live for eternity. When battling a spiritual foe like Satan, we need spiritual armor. Even though we cannot see or touch this armor, we can put it on every morning. Before getting out of bed, imagine each piece of armor, thank God for this spiritual defense against Satan, and put it on. By following this practice, I guarantee that you will have a greater sense of peace and security in your life than you have ever experienced before. You will know that you are empowered by God for victory in spiritual warfare.

Be Committed to a Noble Cause
To win a war, you must have a motivation for fighting. In 1 Timothy 1:18, Paul tells his apprentice Timothy to "fight the good fight." You see, the Christian life is never easy. Jesus himself declared, "In the world you have tribulation" (John 16:33). As long as we are working for God, Satan will be working against us. My friend, this may be difficult, but this is our heavenly calling.

And in order to win the war, we must also be committed, no matter what the price. In the military, men and women are committed to follow their superior officers, face the enemy, and accomplish goals that will preserve freedom and liberty. As believers, we also need to be dedicated to our noble calling. The Christian life is not commitment to a religion, denomination, or church; it is commitment to a Person—Jesus Christ.

One of the reasons that so many of God’s people are dissatisfied in their Christian life is that they are not committed to Him. We need to submit to His Lordship and remain determined to follow Him through hardship, suffering, and trials, as well as through the happy times of our lives. We should love God enough to commit our lives to Him no matter what the cost.

Fight in Faith
Finally, we can ensure victory in warfare when we fight in faith. Near the end of his life, Paul writes that "[he has] fought the good fight, [he has] finished the course, [he has] kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). In physical conflicts around the world, the men and women in the military must trust their leaders to make the right decisions concerning strategy and safety. Likewise, Christians need to place their faith in the grace and sovereignty of God.

Satan tries his very best to make us doubt the Word of God. We can resist these thoughts by trusting that the Lord is in absolute control of everything. When we are under attack by Satan and face difficult times, we can believe that God has empowered us to resist the Devil, and that His grace will sustain, protect, and encourage us (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Do you want to win the war? Then you must acknowledge that you cannot succeed alone. If you have never accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you need to relinquish your life to Him (John 3:16). Commit yourself to His Lordship, and He will empower you to resist Satan and live a godly life. As Christians, we do not have to battle defeat and helplessness; we can have confidence that the Living God will enable us be victorious in spiritual warfare.

—Charles F. Stanley

A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

© May / June 1994, Modern Reformation / ACE

Most American Evangelicals are firmly committed to the idea that an earthly millennial age will begin immediately after our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Advent. Since premillennialism is so dominant in American church circles, many who encounter historic Protestantism for the first time are quite surprised when they discover that all of the Protestant Reformers and the entire Reformed and Lutheran traditions are amillennial. Amillennialism is that understanding of eschatology which sees the millennium not as a future golden age as does premillennialism (the age of the church triumphant), but instead as the present course of history between the First and Second Advent's of our Lord (the age of the church militant). And indeed, I am sure that there are many readers who will express shock and disappointment upon learning of my own amillennial convictions. But I am convinced, however, that many readers simply do not understand the basic end-times scenario found in the New Testament. Part of the problem is that dispensational premillennial writers have completely dominated Christian media and publishing. There are literally hundreds of books, churches, and parachurch ministries all devoted to taking premillennialism and the "pretribulation" rapture idea to the masses. And so, I can only lament the fact that my own tradition has done so little to produce popular books introducing and defending amillennialism. It is my guess that many who read this article will have never heard the case for the classical position held by the church regarding the return of Christ and the millennial age.

Another problem encountered when examining this subject is that discussions of it often generate a great deal of heat but not very much light. One local prophecy pundit has quipped that the people in heaven with the lowest IQs will be amillennial. Hal "Late Great" Lindsey goes so far as to label amillennialism as "anti-Semitic," demonic and heretical.1 It is not uncommon to hear prophecy teachers label amillennial Christians as "liberal" or to accuse them of not taking the Bible literally. The result of such diatribes is that American Christians cannot help but be prejudiced by such unfortunate comments, and many simply reject outright (without due consideration of the other side) the eschatology of the Reformers and classical Protestantism-an eschatology that is amazingly simple, biblical, and Christ centered. And so, if you should be in that camp, instead of simply turning me off at this point, please bear with me, hear my case, and then decide for yourself on the basis of Scripture.

Unfortunately, it is all too fashionable to interpret the Bible in light of the morning newspaper and CNN. Yes, it is fun to read the Bible through the filter of every geopolitical crisis that arises in our modern world. This adds relevance to the Bible, we are told. It most assuredly sells thousands and thousands of books and provides for slick programs on Christian TV and radio documenting every move by the European Economic Community, and every possible technological breakthrough that may prepare the way for the coming Mark of the Beast. These sensational end-times dramas heighten the sense of urgency regarding the coming of our Lord. They supposedly give the church missionary zeal. But however fascinating these schemes may be, I do not believe that they accurately reflect the Biblical data.

There is, in addition, a quite serious side effect produced by this approach to Bible prophecy: The Bible no longer speaks for itself because it is twisted into a pretzel by each of its interpreters, who do their best to show that the upheaval of the nations described in the Book of Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with the original reader in the first century struggling under Roman persecution, but is instead somehow related to the morning headlines. How many times can we tell our hearers that Jesus is coming back soon (No, we really mean it this time!) and then tie that message to a passing despot like Saddam Hussein or a tenuous political figure like Mikhail Gorbachev? How do we keep those who need to hear about Christ's Second Advent the most from becoming increasingly cynical about the message of his coming? But then again this too is a sign of the end, for scoffers will come and say "where is this 'coming' he promised?" (2 Pt 3:34) How tragic that prophecy speculators actually contribute to the very skepticism they themselves acknowledge as a key sign of the end. The classical Protestant tradition has helpful answers to these problems, as it does to many other crises facing the modern Church that, by and large, have been forgotten by today's Evangelicals.

All of the Protestant Reformers, were they to come back to give us counsel in these areas, would insist that we must start with the notion that the Bible itself must be read with the analogia fidei (the analogy of faith), meaning that Holy Scripture must be allowed to interpret Scripture. In other words, we must inductively develop a biblical model of eschatology by utilizing all of the passages that relate to the return of Christ, the resurrection, the judgement, the millennium, and so on. We should never study eschatology merely by finding Bible verses (often out of context) that we think describe current events. And so, by utilizing the analogy of faith, we begin with the clear declarations of Scripture regarding the coming of our Lord and use them to shed light on passages that are less clear. Following this method, we can clear up many of the bizarre mysteries fabricated by modern prophecy devotees, who insist upon making unclear and difficult passages the standard by which we interpret clear and certain verses. If this basic hermeneutical principle is followed, we will soon find that we can no longer interpret all of the Bible by the Book of Revelation. Instead, we must read the Book of Revelation through the rest of the Bible. Historic Protestants would also insist, for example, that Revelation interprets the book of Daniel and not vice versa. The New Testament must be allowed to interpret the Old. There is nothing particularly difficult or profound in this, and following this basic principle of Bible study facilitates a clearer understanding of Bible prophecy.

If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the "weirder," tougher passages. One such approach is known as the "two-age" model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of "this age" and the "age to come" as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:3435; Eph 1:21). For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as "this age" in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ. The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as "the age to come." When these two ages ("this age" and "the age to come") are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the Biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to "this age" by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: "homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields-and with them persecutions" (Mk 10:30); "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage" (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:68); "the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers" (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called "the present evil age" (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Ti 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. "This age" is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

By marked contrast however, "the age to come" has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceeded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by "life that is truly life" (I Tm 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present ("this age") and the future (the "age to come") stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ. This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture. "The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous" (Mt. 13:3949). These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ's return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the twoage model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the "last day" (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age. In addition, Jesus also proclaims that "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the "last day" and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thes 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:3146). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible "literally" and who champion what they call the "literal" interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousandyear gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that "this age"--the period of time Peter calls the "last days" (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13)-ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the "last day." An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the "day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare" (2 Pt 3:10). It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality. Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth. (i.e., a future millennium) Instead the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth! The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy. For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!

Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straight forward. This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament's teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the so-called "millennial age."

First, the "last days" began with the coming of Christ and will continue until Christ returns (Acts 2:17; Heb 1:2). This period of time, "this age," is destined to pass away, and is characterized by war, famine, environmental distress, persecution and even the martyrdom of God's people (Rv 20:46). While there is every likelihood that this distress will increase in the period immediately before the return of Christ, no one knows the day or the hour of our Lord's return. Further, Jesus' birth pain imagery most likely means that we should expect alternating periods of peace and intensifying evil that will cause many to unduly speculate about the immanent return of Christ. These are sharp, stabbing birth pains, but not they are not the birth itself. Therefore, our preoccupation should not be with signs of the end, but instead we must be consumed with the task assigned to the church in the last days: the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom.

Second, the return of Christ clearly marks an end to the temporal nature of life as we know it- "this present evil age." At his return, Jesus will raise the believing dead, judge all men, and send the wicked into the fires of Hell. The elements of this Earth burn up and the new heavens and earth will be established. This scenario completely destroys much of contemporary evangelical prophetic speculation, which advocates a "secret" coming of Christ and the "rapture" of believers (and what text can be adduced to argue that Jesus comes back secretly?) a full seven years before the final judgement at Christ's bodily return. Does Jesus come back once or twice, with one of them being secret? Such speculation is nonsense when viewed in light of the clear gospel texts cited above, which universally describe the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of believers and unbelievers as parts of one event. This senario also destroys the idea of a future earthly millennial reign of Christ after he returns in judgement. Since this supposed thousandyear reign occurs after the eternal destiny of all men and women is forever settled in the judgement, the very thought of Jesus ruling over a world wherein there are still men and women in natural bodies repopulating the Earth is simply not supported by clear texts (remember the one about no marriage?).

If the millennial reign described in Revelation 20 is actually referring to a future period of time, another even more significant problem arises. At the end of the one thousand years, John tells us that there is a great apostasy (a second fall if you will) while Jesus is ruling the nations with the rod of iron (Rv 20:710). This sounds much more like something that would happen in this age, and when viewed against (2 Thes 2:112) an often overlooked parallel passage where a great apostasy occurs before the man of sin is revealed (v. 3), the case for a present millennial age becomes even stronger. Since there can be no people on earth in natural bodies after the judgment (which occurs when Christ comes back according to the clear texts we have seen above), these apostates can only be those same believers that Jesus raised from the dead at his return. In other words, if premillennialism is correct, then it is glorified saints follow Satan and revolt against Christ! But are we really to believe that evil is not finally conquered at Christ's return-even where Jesus is physically reigning and judgement has already occurred? Of course not, and this is self-evidently refuted by the analogy of faith, which expressly tells us that Jesus will destroy all of his enemies and hand the kingdoms of the world over to his Father (1 Cor 15:24) at his second coming. On closer investigation, we see that the events in Revelation 20 do not take place on the Earth at all, for the thrones described in that passage are in heaven, and not on the Earth. Furthermore, in a book such as Revelation, where numbers are always used symbolically, it makes much more sense to argue that the one thousand years are symbolic of the period of time between the first and second comings of Christ, rather than see them as a literal future period with a second fall during Jesus' kingly rule after the judgment. Thus the existence of evil and the supposed apostasy of glorified believers in a future millennial age poses a very difficult problem for all forms of premillennialism.

Third, and most importantly, the two-age model places its entire focus upon Jesus Christ and his second coming and not on idle speculation regarding world events. In the classical Protestant model, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the return of Jesus Christ to Earth. In fact, Jesus may even return before you finish reading this article! The eschatological cry of Protestant orthodoxy has always been, "Maranatha Come quickly Lord Jesus!" As with many other things in life the simplest approach may be the best. The two-age model is clear, biblical, and Christ centered. It refuses to allow undue speculation about current events to overturn the clear teaching of Scripture. It is a shame that it has been lost to so many Christians.

Notes
1. Hal Lindsey, The Rapture (New York: Bantam Books, 1983), p. 30.

Resources For Further Study
Anthony Hoekema, The Bible and the Future (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans, 1980).
Arthur Lewis, The Dark Side of the Millennium: The Problem of Evil in Revelation 20:110 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980).
Kim Riddlebarger, For He Must Reign, Cassette Tape Series (available through The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals).

Friends,

What I see here is a total misunderstanding of the whole concept of how predestination, in light of God's Sovereignty, works:

There is no "physical force" that is going to march us into the Baptism, or make us ask for forgiveness. It is there for the taking, but ONLY when we, of our own free will ask for it.

You are right that God does not physically force you to accept Him. When one views all the scripture of how it God unfolds his plan, it is clearly much more wondrous! God, through the person of the Holy Spirit, works on our hearts. When that happens we see what total sinners we are. (We see that happening over and over again throughout the Bible, even to men we would consider "good men.") Once our heart is laid bare, we realize what a sordid state we live in. The Holy Spirit makes us so acutely aware of our sin that we feel drawn to Christ as the only way out of that sin. It is not what many say, that is we are robots or puppets. Just once the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart, or as the Bible says, calls us, we fell the overwhelming urge to accept Christ.

Like I asked Jorge in post 49 (which he never answered) Think back to the exact moment you accepted Christ. When you accepted Christ, was it comparable to a decision to buy a life insurance policy? I'll guess that your heart was laid bare, that the urge was so strong there was no way you could resist! You had no choice but to answer the call! How do I know this? It is written: Rom 8:30 - "And those he predestined, he also called."

Why would that even be necessary if all things were pre-destined? Why would we ever pray for sinners...

If there is free will, how can your prayers be effectual? If the sinner has free will, our prayers will not and cannot be effectual! God cannot, by the rule that Armenians set up, interfere, because it is free will that saves, not election! Don't you see the trap that is set here? Some will say the same about my crowd, that is, if it is predestined, what good will prayer do? The Bible shows God responding to our prayer through his plan! Think about it in the context of the Lords Prayer, "Thy will be done." And don't think that God doesn't want me to disciple just because I believe in the scriptural presentation of predestination. That is a false assumption. It is all the more important that I do so that I may reach the elect, as God's tool to share the truth of the Gospel!

Please read this verse, one of many that I have posted and explain how this demonstrates that we have free will. Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen,h aving been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

And please be intellectually honest. (as I am doing as I am reading through your excellent earlier post ;-)) Tell me exactly how this fits with free will. Again, show me where anything that sounds like free will used in the Gospel! Something that sounds like "and_________choose to believe in God, or using his free will/choice/understanding, he accepted Christ."

Many free willers try to twist scripture to say that God knew we would accept him and thus predestined us. But it clearly does not say that. Why, because either you accept that Bible as inerrant, or you don't. (If you don't let me know, that would be another fun debate!) That is an interpretation that is way out of whack with the truth that is presented! Why do I say this, because to reach this conclusion you must totaly change the order of the verses!

BTW Jorge, to answer you your post I've debated this subject for many years in various online forums, and it seems to me you have an accurate view of what Bible teaches...a good grasp of the fallacies in the opposing side's arguments.... and your posts have been some of the most articulate and to the point that I've read in this thread. Don't be to proud of your debating skills. What I see is the seagull method: You fly, in make a bunch of noise, leave a mess, but never answer any question that is asked of you. Several people have answered your questions, but your rolling of eyes, stomping of feet and hiding behind the phrase "that is inconsistent with scripture" and then not providing quotes is very tiresome. I will guess that on other boards people have just grown weary of this tactic, like I am doing, and just ignore your rantings.

Vets, ya'll provide more cohesive thoughts than Jorge, I find your comments stimulating. I hope you are giving mine just as much thought!

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.