[Gamecock]

I don't see that any where in Genesis 3. While Adam and Eve had will to eat or not eat from the tree, once they did we became slaves to sin. They had the choice, once they ate, our relationship with God changed. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit working on out hearts do we want to change our lives. Keep reading to hear about our will.

"I think St. Paul has a good deal to say about it as well."

Paul actually says the exact opposite:

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Doesn't sound like Pharaoh had a free will to me, God made him for this purpose. The next set of verses from the same chapter talk about the fairness of what God chooses to do with us:

Romans 9: 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

Want more?

Ephesians 1;3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

You see, it is His will, not ours!

[AnAmericanMother]

It is inherently contradictory: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you." Hence the Lewis quote - there's no point in trying to separate out the contradiction between man's temporal life and God's eternal purposes.

As a priest once said to me, "It's not our problem - it's God's problem. And He's got it under control."

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

I just read some more of your replies. By your theory God would be responsible for all things evil. Like men sodomising little boys, or raping little girls, or murdering them. Or for anything people do that is evil.

Is this what you mean to say? Because that goes totally against "free will" and whatever it is that "you" propose that God does (Which I vehemently disagree with).

[Jorge]

Want more?

Ephesians 1;3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

You see, it is His will, not ours!

How can you ignore the scriptures that tell us mankind has free will and yet pick and choose the scriptures you want to make your point?

The truth is when we balance ALL scripture, we find that the Bible teaches BOTH God's sovereignty and man's free will when it comes to world events and salvation.

While men might have problems reconciling these two concepts, the Bible teaches both are facts.

[Jorge]

Doesn't sound like Pharaoh had a free will to me, God made him for this purpose. The next set of verses from the same chapter talk about the fairness of what God chooses to do with us: Romans 9: 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

Want more?

Heres's some more for you;

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4:
"This is good, and pleases God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth".

Contrary to your claims...these verses tell us that NOBODY goes to Hell simply because God wants them to.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

From Bibleanswer.com

Fregards, Vets
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination, it is not one or the other, but rather, both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or "predestination."


Unfortunately, the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, only one or the other.

We must accept the the "whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many men teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism), or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God.

Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected predestined or set in place) to save every soul who "fears God and works righteousness" (Acts 10:34-35).

That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28).

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class (of those "in Him") if we want to be of the chosen.

Let me illustrate it this way:
A school teacher on the first day of class told his students that some would pass and some would fail the course they were about to take. He then described the things necessary for one to be of those who would pass. At the end of the school year, just as the teacher had said, some passed and some failed. Since the teacher had predestinated the outcome before he began, does it mean that he caused each individual to either pass or fail and there was nothing they could do about it? Certainly not!

It was up to each student to be of whichever group he desired. Likewise, God predetermined before He made the world that He would choose those "in Christ" and now it is up to us to be of those in Christ.

By using our free-will we choose whether to be "in Christ" and thus saved (Gal. 3:26-27).

So, we see God's part (His gracious plan of human redemption which is accomplished through the death of Christ), and man's part (faith in Christ, cf. Jas. 2:14-26; Matt. 7:21-23) combining to complete the equation of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9).

[Jorge]

Romans 9: 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This does not mean that God creates evil. Every person has equal opportunity to be saved and fulfill his destiny in the Divine Design of God. However, God knows that some people will reject Salvation and the Divine Design of God. He knows the end from the beginning. And He allows some people to reject authority and express their negative volition to the maximum to become vessels of dishonor.