Scottish minister: God is sovereign over everything -- even war

BP NEWS ^ | Apr 8, 2003 | Jeff Robinson

[Dubya]

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--The sovereignty of God as presented in the Book of Revelation should remind Christians that God is in control of all the events of history, including warfare, Scottish minister Eric Alexander noted in a two-sermon series at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Alexander, a Presbyterian minister, said Revelation 4-5 paint three pictures that should give believers assurance during uncertain times. The chapters unpack God's kingship, His guidance over the history of creation and the central act of history -- God's redemption of sinners in Jesus Christ, Alexander said.

"We are conscious that these are critical hours in which we live," he said at the Louisville, Ky., campus in mid-March. "We are aware of the question, 'Where is the hand controlling the events we are passing through?'

"The relevance of the Bible at such a time as this and the relevance of Revelation is that it takes us to this throne of God. It [Revelation] is not there to satisfy our curiosity, but to give us a perspective on the world in which we live and the whole of history, so that we are able to see it [history] from a different vantage point from the rest of the world."

The apostle John presents the throne as the central feature of his vision in Revelation 4, Alexander said. This is highly significant because the eternal kingship of God is evident by John's pointing out that the throne is constantly occupied.

John penned Revelation while suffering in exile on the island of Patmos, which Alexander described as "a kind of Alcatraz in the ancient world." Paul's audience -- the seven churches in Asia -- also were undergoing intense persecution. John shared his vision to encourage the churches and to remind them that God was still on the throne despite their suffering, he said.

Alexander recalled where he was when terrorists attacked America on Sept. 11, 2001 -- in the clubhouse at St. Andrews golf course in Scotland.

Alexander remembered how a fellow golfer reacted to the news after learning Alexander was a minister. The man's words echo the very thought that sometimes enters a believer's mind during seasons of suffering, he said.

"He said to me, 'I guess your God has gone for a holiday,'" Alexander said. "And that is the deep fear that lies even in the hearts of some trembling, faithful souls: 'Is God really on the throne?' And John clearly gives us the answer in the outset of his vision."

In Revelation 5, John's vision includes an angel holding a scroll. This scroll is the record of human destiny and divine purpose for the world, Alexander said. The scroll is both complete -- it contains no blank spaces -- and is sealed.

This points to the fact that, while every event in history is in God's hands, it is sealed from the sphere of human speculation or knowledge, Alexander said. It also shows that there is God-ordained purpose for every event in life and that all God's purposes in the world are a closed book to human beings.

"John weeps. It has made him deeply sad and the mystery of life is beginning to engulf him," he said.

Believers should note that John points to the climax of history in Revelation 5:6. The "Lamb standing, as if slain," is Christ, who is the key to history," Alexander said.

During times of war and suffering, Christians must look to the Lamb and take comfort in the fact that His purposes - even though mysterious from a human perspective - will not be thwarted, he said. This should lead Christians to worship God in awe and wonder, he added.

"That Lamb is the crucified, risen, exalted and now reigning Lord Jesus Christ," Alexander said. "He is the key to history, the key to life. Christ is the key to every mystery that life brings to us because He was slain and with His blood purchased a people for God.

"That is the central thing about the whole of history. It is the building of the church, which is the central element in history. When that work is done and when the church of Jesus Christ is complete, that is when God will bring down the curtain on the affairs of this sad world. May God help us that we may have that special view of the world which comes from dwelling near the throne."

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

From Bibleanswer.com

Fregards, Vets
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination, it is not one or the other, but rather, both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or "predestination."


Unfortunately, the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, only one or the other.

We must accept the the "whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many men teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism), or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God.

Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected predestined or set in place) to save every soul who "fears God and works righteousness" (Acts 10:34-35).

That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28).

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class (of those "in Him") if we want to be of the chosen.

Let me illustrate it this way:
A school teacher on the first day of class told his students that some would pass and some would fail the course they were about to take. He then described the things necessary for one to be of those who would pass. At the end of the school year, just as the teacher had said, some passed and some failed. Since the teacher had predestinated the outcome before he began, does it mean that he caused each individual to either pass or fail and there was nothing they could do about it? Certainly not!

It was up to each student to be of whichever group he desired. Likewise, God predetermined before He made the world that He would choose those "in Christ" and now it is up to us to be of those in Christ.

By using our free-will we choose whether to be "in Christ" and thus saved (Gal. 3:26-27).

So, we see God's part (His gracious plan of human redemption which is accomplished through the death of Christ), and man's part (faith in Christ, cf. Jas. 2:14-26; Matt. 7:21-23) combining to complete the equation of salvation (Eph. 2:8-9).

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Meant to ping you to my post 41.

FRegards FRiend, Vets

[Jorge]

Romans 9: 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

This does not mean that God creates evil. Every person has equal opportunity to be saved and fulfill his destiny in the Divine Design of God. However, God knows that some people will reject Salvation and the Divine Design of God. He knows the end from the beginning. And He allows some people to reject authority and express their negative volition to the maximum to become vessels of dishonor.

[rwfromkansas]

Check the context of those verses.

[rwfromkansas]

Rom 9:22-26
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- PREPARED for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in ADVANCE for glory--
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
(NIV)

[Gamecock]

How can you ignore the scriptures that tell us mankind has free will and yet pick and choose the scriptures you want to make your point?

Your question can be turned right back to you, how can you say that man has free will when scripture shows we don't?

Where are these verses? I am still waiting for someone to show me where in the Bible free-will is presented.

When I read the Bible, I see God choosing Noah, God choosing Abraham, I see God choosing the Children of Israel.

I see God bringing up the Pharoah to display his power. I see God choosing Jacob over Esau.

I see people trying to exert free will and getting smacked down (Jonah)

And let's not forget the Diciples: John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Help me, where does it say I come to God on my own free will? ?

Think back to the exact moment you accepted Christ. When you accepted Christ, was it comparable to a decision to buy a life insurance policy? I'll guess that your heart was layed bare, that you had no choice to answer the call! How do I know this? It is written: Rom 8:30 - "And those he predestined, he also called."?

Did you choose, or did God? John 6 44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.?

Don't you see, you cannot come, unless you are drawn, you are not drawn unless he chose you!

[Don'tMessWithTexas]

One of the immutable attributes of God is His omnipotence. If God's will in anything is subservient to man or the will of man, God's will is, by extensition, not sovereign in that area. Accordingly, God is made, so to speak, less than omnipotent. Therefore, God would no longer be immutable. Real Bad theology Jorge.

You must reconcile God's holiness as well as His sovereignty and omnipotence. Howya gonna do it?

[Gamecock]

Article 39? Let's talk Scripture, not some man made creed.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Please read this article and the one I posted before. I realize it is a complex question, and the debate rages on. But I can choose to do good, or to do evil. To be a Christian or an Atheist. Eternal salvation or ....

At any rate.. we are both predestined and have free will. If I don't recognize the "responsibilities" of free will as a Christian, then I'm more likely to sin and say "Well, I'm a Christain and I'm not perfect, and I have no choice if I'm going to heaven anyway.. so what the hey".

I think it is important to recognize good choices and sinful choices, and that we can all be tempted, and we have the FREE WILL to defy evil as individuals. Which also allows me to PRAY for sinners, if you get my drift. How else can we "forgive" or help others become Christians who have sinned? We teach them how to make "choices" by their own FREE WILL. Good choices!!

Anyway.. read on. And believe me.. I definitely take into consideration any of your views. I'm able to admit if I'm wrong.

Vets
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Serving Christians Seeking to Live a Holy Life



FREE WILL
Leon L. Combs, Ph.D.
June 5, 2000
Free will was defined by Augustine as the ability to make voluntary decisions (choices) free from external constraint or coercion. Our choices are then based upon who we are at the moments of the decisions. We will make the decision toward one choice or another based upon the dominant internal desire at that moment. These desires are cultivated by the development of our senses of choice, and such development is dependent upon our innate desires and the influence of our society upon those desires. The societal punishment for some choices (robbery, murder, bribery, etc.) will make those low probability choices for many people in our society. Thus most people tend to choose among choices which are among various acceptable communal morality options.

Now we need to distinguish between morality and ethics. Morality is whatever is acceptable by the current society whereas ethics is based upon some code external to the society. Morality tends to change with each advancing generation and from culture to culture, whereas ethics should stay the same since the external code does not change. Thus what is not an acceptable moral choice today may be an acceptable moral choice in a few years (or months). Certainly we in the U.S. have witnessed quite a shift in moral standards in the last twenty years, and an even greater change in the last few years. However what was ethical yesterday should still be ethical today. I do not think that the U.S. has an external code for ethical behavior anymore, unless it is the Darwinian code.

However to the Christian the external code of ethical behavior is the Bible. Therefore to the Christian there has not been any change in acceptable ethical behavior because the Bible has not changed. We Christians would, of course, prefer that the moral behavior of our society were the same as an ethical behavior based upon the Word of God.

Now what about the topic of free will regarding Biblically based choices? Is a person "free" to choose God's way or Satan's way at any time? The Bible tells us that people are first born as a people who are slaves to sin: Rom 6:20 "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness." "Free in regard to righteousness" means that righteousness had no place in our lives regarding our choices. The non-Christian has the free will to choose among many choices, some moral and some non-moral and he/she made choices depending upon whatever inclination was the strongest at the time of the choice. However he/she lacks the liberty to choose righteousness - before regeneration there was no inclination within us toward choosing righteousness. Liberty of choice refers to the choices that are available among which to freely choose. If we are locked in a jail cell we don't have the liberty to take a walk in the park whenever we wish - the choice is not available. We have the liberty to only choose among the choices that we have available. The non-Christian has free will to make many choices but will not freely choose the ethical standards of the Bible. He/she has free will but not the inclination to choose God's choices for he/she is free in regard to righteousness as a consequence of the fall.

However once a person becomes a Christian, he/she is now righteous and thus now has the liberty to freely choose righteousness or sinfulness. Our liberty has been restored to that originally possessed by Adam and Eve. God has to work in us initially and continually for us to will and to work for His good pleasure:

Phil 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The underlining in the quotation is added for emphasis in this discussion. Before the work of God in my life, I did not have the inclination or the ability to will or to work for His good pleasure.

There is only one Scriptural reference to "free will" and this is in a letter addressed to Christians who thus possess the righteousness of Jesus Christ:

Philemon 1:14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.

From the above Scripture and our definition of free will, we see that Paul wanted them to have progressed to such a state that by their free will they would choose God's will for their actions rather than obeying God because of a command from Paul. Paul wanted their motivation to solely be their love for God and their desire to please Him.

When I was about 15, my mom wanted me to want to take out the garbage rather than just doing it because she told me to do it. Her desire for me to have a change in my desire was very good and Biblical. However, I have to confess that I mainly took it out because I knew that I had to do it. My free will choice would be to read a book or go for a ride rather than taking out the garbage. We should honor our parents; and we certainly honor them when we obey them, but we honor them much more when we love them so much that we spend much time seeking to understand them so that we can do those things that we know that they would want us to do before they ask us to do them.

But now let's take the scene to an entirely different level as we understand that the above text says that our goodness should be by our free will, for the goodness here is God's definition of goodness. Our free will should then guide us to learn as much about God as possible so that we can anticipate His desire for us and that our actions should then all be guided by a free will choice of God's will in all areas of our lives. Before regeneration that aspect of our free will is just not present and I think most people would freely admit such.

So what is free will? It is the ability to make voluntary decisions (choices) free from external constraint or coercion. The free will of the unregenerate person will allow for many different decisions, but none of them will include the driving desire to choose God's will as the basis for his/her actions in all areas of his/her life. To properly understand free will, we have to understand that our wills are always a slave to one area or another. Our wills are never really free, meaning totally free from an internal constraint for we are either serving sin or serving righteousness:

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

The only hope for any of us is the hope based upon the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ so that:

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;

It is only through regeneration that we can have the liberty to choose either His way or the sinful way. After conversion we will then always want to choose God's way, but we will not always make that choice. It is only after we are totally sanctified that our choices will always be God's way. Until that day there will be conflict between our sin nature and our regenerated nature.

This topic has been, and will probably continue to be, discussed by many theologians and lay people. Many books and articles have been published about it, and below I recommend a few for your edification. As in any Christian concept the only way to approach the issue is to first set our mind "free" of prejudicial concepts relating to the topic and let God tell us the answer.


Suggested Books:
"The Freedom of the Will", Jonathan Edwards, Soli Deo Gloria publishers, 1996 (book first published by Thomas Nelson in 1845)
"The Bondage of the Will", Martin Luther, Baker Book House Company, 1976.
"Willing to Believe", R. C. Sproul, Baker Books, 1997.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Amen to post 32. Well said. Thanks

This is a subject that has perplexed and confused many a good Christian.

FRegards, Vets

[Gamecock]

"This does not mean that God creates evil. Every person has equal opportunity to be saved and fulfill his destiny in the Divine Design of God. However, God knows that some people will reject Salvation and the Divine Design of God. He knows the end from the beginning. And He allows some people to reject authority and express their negative volition to the maximum to become vessels of dishonor."

Did I say God creates evil? This passage addresses those who say it's not fair!

Read this, digest it! Argue with the scripture!

He doesn't know it, He causes it!

Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5] 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Philemon 1:14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

I can't say I follow the "Unitarian" belief system. Though I imagine the Rev. Hartshorne was a fine man, and well intentioned, I would have to evaluate his views a lot more than I can in one night to come to an opinion of his opinion. :o)

NO offense meant if you are Unitarian. This is a great discussion. An important discussion for "all" Christians.

Vets

[Jorge]

"How can you ignore the scriptures that tell us mankind has free will and yet pick and choose the scriptures you want to make your point?"

Your question can be turned right back to you, how can you say that man has free will when scripture shows we don't?

Where are these verses? I am still waiting for someone to show me where in the Bible free-will is presented.

You've got to be kidding.
Did you even read my post before you responded?

The verses that say it is NOT GOD'S WILL that ANY should PERISH... But that ALL should come to repentance!

If people go to Hell it is NOT because God wants them to.
Do you prefer to beleive in a God who is some sort of sadistic monster who simply creates people so He can torment them in Hell for His own fun?
This is how predestination..which ignores man's free will smears the character of God.

There are so many scriptures which speak to man's free will it is astounding that anyone could miss them.

The Gospel message offers salvation to ALL as a free gift...the idea that man has no free will to accept it would make Jesus the worst kind of liar.
Yet you claim man has no free will. Incredible!

[Jorge]

One of the immutable attributes of God is His omnipotence. If God's will in anything is subservient to man or the will of man, God's will is, by extensition, not sovereign in that area. Accordingly, God is made, so to speak, less than omnipotent. Therefore, God would no longer be immutable. Real Bad theology Jorge.

You must reconcile God's holiness as well as His sovereignty and omnipotence. Howya gonna do it?

This is easy.
God willingly allows man a degree of free will. This in no way compromises his omnipotence. How silly.

[AnAmericanMother]

Man was given reason and knowledge in order to learn. The Thirty-Nine Articles are the distillation of theological learning of the greatest minds in England at that time.

And before you assert that this is merely a "man made creed", you should know that pretty much the same group of English scholars and divines came up with the King James or Authorized Version of Scripture a few years later.

[Jorge]

Did you choose, or did God? John 6 44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.?

Yes, but the SAME BIBLE also commands that the Gospel be preached to all the world.

Preaching the Gospel to those who cannot be saved would be to give them a false hope. One would be a liar.

So once again..understanding the Bible requires balancing ALL scripture. Not just picking the ones you want to believe.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

The Gospel message offers salvation to ALL as a free gift...the idea that man has no free will to accept it would make Jesus the worst kind of liar.

And there is the WHOLE reason for the coming of Christ. Any who COME to the Father THROUGH HIM of their own free will, can be saved. No matter what they did in their past, no matter how severe the sin, they can be saved through Christ. Through Christ we are all offered salvation, but we have to WANT it, to really want it with all our hearts.

There is no "physical force" that is going to march us into the Baptism, or make us ask for forgiveness. It is there for the taking, but ONLY when we, of our own free will ask for it.

Why would that even be neccessary if all things were pre-destined? Why would we ever pray for sinners, or try to help those who don't know the Lord, know him? Why even try if they are already destined to eternal damnation? My understanding is we should NEVER give up on those people, but should continue to try to bring them to God, to show them salvation through Jesus Christ.

You explained it in layman terms.

I'm a horrible writer and have a hard time conveying my thoughts in this medium. So again, thanks. (Hope I made sense.. but I think you have understood what I was trying to say :o)

[Gamecock]

understanding the Bible requires balancing ALL scripture

Read that verse again. What is it? It is a command for believers. We are Gods tool. It doesn't even imply that man has a choice.

Using your own standard of balancing the Scripture (which I believe) how can read a commandment to preach the Gospel and use it to shoot down the verses that I have already quoted? The verses I quoted show us Gods will, the ones you quote show us the mechanism God uses to spread the word.

Preaching the Gospel to those who cannot be saved would be to give them a false hope. One would be a liar.

If I preach the Gospel to those who cannot be saved, they will not hear it, they will not act upon it, they will not accept Christ. Read Romans 9 again, closely. You are accusing Gof og being unfair, this Chapter addresses you!

[Gamecock]

And before you assert that this is merely a "man made creed", you should know that pretty much the same group of English scholars and divines came up with the King James or Authorized Version of Scripture a few years later.

No, God wrote the King James, not this group of men! How can you put the Bible next to a man made creed? It sounds like you are esteeming this group of men as much as God.