I applaud you!
Posted on 04/04/2003 1:30:46 PM PST by george wythe
American soldiers retreated warily from the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf yesterday after a furious crowd gathered around them to stop foreign soldiers from approaching one of the holiest shrines of Shia Islam.
"Everybody smile!" shouted the platoon commander as he told his baffled men to kneel down and point their weapons at the ground, in a surreal act of submission.
The mightiest army in the world is learning the hard way the awkward art of trying to "win the hearts and minds" of suspicious civilians.
In other cities civilians have largely been bystanders in the military drama, neither rising up to cheer nor uniting to resist.
But in Najaf, hundreds poured into the streets to block the way of American soldiers as they came within sight of the golden dome of the mosque. They waved the soldiers away as some explained in broken English: "In the city, OK. In the mosque, No!"
The mosque is the reputed burial place of Ali, the fourth Caliph of Islam and the first Imam of Shia Islam.
It was damaged by Iraqi forces during the Shi'ite uprising against Saddam Hussein at the end of the 1991 Gulf war. But despite any hatred Najaf's people may harbour for Saddam, they seem resolutely opposed to having "infidel" soldiers violating the holy ground.
Nevertheless, the city's religious authorities seem to be reaching an accommodation with the occupying forces.
According to a US commander in the Gulf, Brig-Gen Vincent Brooks, a prominent Shi'ite Muslim cleric in Najaf has issued a religious edict urging Iraqis to remain calm and not to hinder American forces.
Across Najaf, American forces searched buildings for Fedayeen paramilitary fighters loyal to Saddam.
US officers said most of the Fedayeen forces had simply dropped their equipment and fled, but some were still putting up a fight.
(Excerpt) Read more at portal.telegraph.co.uk ...
I applaud you!
I try to tell the Mr. that's why FR is so great! You just don't get the "facts" about an article until it's been through the Freeper gauntlet. Especially true of reports that discuss weaponry or guns of any sort.
That was neither the time nor the place to try and explain to those nimrods that there were snipers in their oh-so-holy shrine and that our boys were going to go in there and secure it for them. Of course, most of 'em are dumber than rocks, but still. Gunning down beaucoup civvies on the spot wouldn't have been a cool thing to do......
..but they sure as HELL didn't "bow".
The holy shrine of Imam Ali...Right now my tolerance for all things politicially correct is at an all time low....
I also view most things PC as thought and speech control but...
PC has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. My thought is that the incident under discussion occurred because the locals wanted to defend an architecturally beautiful, very old and revered holy place they perceived to be in serious jepordy. To introduce the concept of Christian values over riding all other thoughts on the planet is just plain wrong. <P>
The locals conveyed their view to the commander and he used his common sense and considerable forbearance to back off. When fighting a war, picking battles is important.
The photo above may not be the best but it was all I could find in a hurry. It is a seriously historical/holy place commemorating lives and events 1400 years ago.
Now where did you come up with that?
Would you have the courage to stand in the street in front of the Capitol building or the White House in front of such force?.
There is a big difference between the seats of government and a house of God. In my estimation the WH and Capitol building have been so desecrated by politicians of all ilk - no one could do more desecration - destruction- yes - desecration no.
This is quite telling - I don't worship at the alter of government - and I certainly don't equate government with religion, and certainly not God.
Thank you for your clarification.
In your dreams!!!!!!! They want Saddam gone and we are just the vile infidels who are going to do it for them. That is all and anything else is wishful thinking. One on one there are good, kind people over there, but don't fall into the the delusion they are going to 'love' us, either there or in our own country. They are quite willing to use us and our abilities over there as they do here - but 'love' the infidels ----
I missed it too.
If someone posts a video link, I'll ping you.
Fundamentalist Christians may be annoying, but they don't want to kill me.,
First, I haven't read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone suggest that they be destroyed for the sake of destruction and I don't think that that was the intent of the soldiers there. Now we do know, however, that mosques are used to hide a lot of nefarious behavior - we have seen that here in America.
Just wonder,though, if y ou feel the destruction of a Christian Church would be an abomination? Not sacred enough for you? Just what is the criteria for sacredness?
Yes, as we are told time and time again by the intellectual, we are just a bunch of biggotted, racist, ignorant, boorish, loutish, and now I add crude Americans - Christian, especially. I suppose it is because Christianity doesn't fit the criteria for intellectual religion -
I always like posts that sound so gooood and make no sense. There were people firing at soldiers from the mosques, weren't there? This is a war - no one was asking to defile a temple or take communion. Totally a non answer.
All religions have their rules.
So do armies - and I wonder if the Arab TV will make more of the 'submission' of the American military than they would if some had been killed. I am glad no one was killed, but you see, I believe, there is no winning the hearts and minds of these people as a whole and I don't think we have time to do it one at a time. WE have many who have lived in this country for years and still want to do us harm. WE had several who lived, trained and enjoyed the freedoms of this country and they flew aiplanes into buildings and killed 3,000 and intended to kill more. So much for learning to love us.
There is no Church in America that draws pilgrams from many nations. The government sites were listed and brought about confusion because I mixed apples and oranges of thought. I listed secular structures because I could think of no church related place that bears the same reverence as do the DC places.
Perhaps the Alamo might qualify. It is not Christian but it is historically reverd. Would Texans take to the streets to defend the Alamo from harm? It would be somewhat comprable.
Now other than asking if it had been a Christian church would the comments have been different - I never suggested it was a Christian vs Islam debate - that may have been someone else - or just what you perceived I meant. If so, you are totally wrong.
I am glad, very glad, civilian and soldiers lives were saved. I hope it was the right decision in the long run.
I don't like the idea of American soldiers showing 'submission' to anyone - whether they be in front of a architecturally, beautiful, ancient, building or in front of a Wal Mart. Even crude, ignorant people can appreciate beautiful things
As for your 'crude Christian' remark - to turn the other cheek is the Christian way - so I can tell you my thoughts were decidedly not Christian.
I am really concerned when I see our President bowing to the Muslims, encouraging not only passively but through his speeches, the illegal immigrants and Mexico's assault on our soveriegnty, the attacks on Christianity by the President and others and the 'everything-America-has-ever-done-in-the-past-was-cruel-ignorant-and racist' school of thought that is being touted lately. A school of thought, I mgiht add that has been fashioned after the very leftist rhetoric they pretend to hate so much.
The only reason the new 'intellectual' have the right to recite what they were taught in their 'educational pursuits' is because of the ignorant, cruel, racist, crude Americans who came before them and fought for and preserved their right to do so. Some of those same crude, racist, cruel, ignorant Americans are the reason others countries in the world today have the freedoms they enjoy.
P.S. This is not the main shrine in the area.... tomorrow maybe we can argue about Karbela.
......
Those who have visited Najaf will remember vividly that to the north and east of the town there are acres of graves and myriads of domes of various colours and at various stages of disrepair. Whoever goes to Najaf will follow a road that approaches the town by a winding course through this vast cemetery. The Prophet Abraham had come to this place along with Isaac; there had been many earthquakes in the vicinity, but while Abraham remained there, there were no tremors. On the night, however, when Abraham and Isaac went to a different village, and sure enough Najaf was visited with another earthquake. When they returned, the people were most eager for them to make Najaf their permanent dwelling-place. Abraham agreed to do so on condition that they would sell him the valley behind the village for cultivation. Isaac protested and said that this land was neither fit for farming nor grazing, but Abraham insisted and assured him that the time would come when there would be a tomb there with a shrine, at which seventy thousand people would gain absolutely undisputed entrance to Paradise, and be able also to intercede for many others.1
The valley that Abraham wanted to buy is called the Valley of Peace (Wadiu's-Salaam), and it is related on the authority of the fourth Imam, that Ali once said that this ValIey of Peace is part of Heaven and that there is not a single one of the believers in the world, whether he dies in the east or west, but his soul will come to this Paradise to rest.2 "As there is nothing hidden in this world from my eyes," Ali went on to say, "I see all the believers seated - here in groups and talking with one another."
How Najaf was given its name is explained in the tradition. At first there was a mountain there, and when one of the sons of Noah refused to enter the Ark, he said that he would sit on this mountain until he would see where the water would come. A revelation came therefore to the mountain, "Do you undertake to protect this son of mine from punishment?" And all at once the mountain fell. to pieces and the son of Noah was drowned. In place of the mountain a large river appeared, but after a few years the river dried up, and the place was called Nay-Jaff, meaning, "the dried river."3
And so as per the prediction of Abraham, Imam Ali was buried here.
Ali is absent today from our midst only physically. His soul even to this day is the greatest spiritual resort everyone who seeks the help of God through his medium. Thousands and thousands of people call out to him in their difficulties, and the word "Ya Ali Madad", automatically comes to them. A famous prayer known as "NADEY ALI" (Call Ali) is recited wherever abound the lovers of Ali.
The Mausoleum
"The Mausoleum itself of Hazrat Ali at Najaf, is breathtaking. There is one large central dome which stands out of a square-shaped ornate structure at the two sides of which are two minarets. The predominant colour of'the exterior is gold, bright shining gold and the entire exterior of the mausoleum is inlaid with a mosaic pattern of light powder blue, white marble, gold again with an occasional splash of Middle East rust." So says D. F. Karaka after his visit to Najaf, and further adds, "I have sat and wondered at the marbled splendour of our Taj Mahal, the tomb which Shah Jahan built for his Empress Mumtaz Mahal, but despite its beauty, the Taj appears insipid in comparison with this splash of colour at Najaf. The tomb surpassed anything I have seen in gorgeous splendour. All the great kings of the world put together could not have a tomb as magnificent as this, for this is the tribute which kings and peasants have built together to enshrine the mortal remains of the great Ali."
Countless number of people from all over the world flock to his tomb day after day to pay their respects and to offer salutations and to pray to Allah seeking his intercession. And those who cannot afford to go there personally, are constantly praying to Allah to help them to visit the shrine of their Maula Ali, and when somebody goes on a pilgrimage to Najaf, they request him to offer salutations on their behalf, and to pray to God - for some particular favour - and to seek Imam Ali's intercession.
"During the reigns of the Umayyad Caliphs his blessed resting-place could not be disclosed, and so it was also under the Abbasids until the reign of Harun al-Rashid. But in the year 175 A.H. (791 A.D.), Harun happened to go hunting in these parts, and the deer he was chasing took refuge on a small piece of raised ground. However much he asked his hunting dogs to capture the quarry, they refused to go near this spot. He urged his horse to this place, and the horse too refused to budge; and on this, awe took possession of the Caliph's heart, and he immediately started to make inquiries of the people of the neighbourhood, and they acquainted him with the fact that this was the grave of Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Holy Prophet. Harun ordered a tomb to be erected over the grave, and people soon began to settle down in its vicinity."4
But everyone is ignorant in some areas. Some of us want to spend our time being 'enlightened' in some areas and some in others. I don't need to know about those shrines to appreciate the fact they are old, beautiful and full of history and religious importance to those people. I resent being called crude, or ignorant because I don't know everything about the buildings. It also has gotten way off course of the debate.
I don't like to see American soldiers bow, in what the journalist called 'submission' in front of anything - period. Call that crude - call it unenlightened - but it is fact. An army is an army. That it saved lives, I am glad - just wonder if it was the only option and even if it was the only option - I don't like it. I wouldn't like surrender to save their lives - might see the wisdom, but I wouldn't like it.
Maybe you should have said a site that drew pilgrims or that held so much importance to so many. To say one site is more sacred really doesn't get the job done. You see, whereever I kneel to pray is just as sacred as that mosque and sometimes much older, and God made because quite often it is outdoors. So you see 'as sacred' is your take on it.
The government sites were listed and brought about confusion because I mixed apples and oranges of thought. I listed secular structures because I could think of no church related place that bears the same reverence as do the DC places.
The confusion was on your part - not mine. I know the difference. I will admit I did jump on it a bit. You see, there seems to be a lot of people who have replaced religion for government and have a spiritual reverance for President Bush. Those people frighten me.
Perhaps the Alamo might qualify. It is not Christian but it is historically reverd.
Actually, the Alamo is a Christian mission. It was also a battlesite that is the reason it is preserved. As a child, when we toured the Alamo, women were encouraged to put a scarf on their heads to show respect for it as a religious place.
Just wonder how the Alamo and its history will fare in the coming years when President Bush gives amnesty to all the Mexicans and they begin as the former Mexican president told Americans of Mexican decent, "to vote,and when you vote, vote with Mexico in mind."
Would Texans take to the streets to defend the Alamo from harm? It would be somewhat comprable.
I will confess I don't know what Texans or Americans would 'take to the streets' to protect. We may very well see in the future. I read a lot of talk and a lot of bluster, but other than the people who volunteer on the border, I don't see Americans (pointing at myself also) doing much proactive defending of things important to us either spiritually or nationally - excepting, of course, the great men and women in uniform and the families who must wait in what, for me, would be a living hell.
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