Author Frank Schaeffer to speak on his Orthodox faith

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It should be easy to "substantiate" this position, even without stomach pumping, through the use of chemical analysis and the proper instrument at the end of a flexible device inserted into the stomach. (It's the stomach that God created for breaking down food into the substances able to be brought into the small intestine for transferring into the blood stream. Upon passing through the stomach, the materials eaten cease to maintain their integrity, e.g., the food is no longer wholly milk, bread, meat, etc.) Or, I suppose there are people who have died not long after Holy Communion and their small intestines could be examined. I'm not being facetious.

Question: What did the Lord mean when He referred to Himself as "this temple" and that we will "abide in" Him? Does this mean we will somehow be brought into his physical (human) body?

Does tell us that when we worship him authentically, we do so "in spirit and in truth?"

Blessings,
Arlen

(Sorry) Does the Lord tell us that when we worship Him authentically, we do so "in spirit and in truth?"

I'm with you (though not myself a S. Baptist) on this. If this floats his boat, great. I've spent time in churches of 3 denominations, as well as non-denominational churches. I know that there were people abiding in Christ in all of them. There were also people who were not abiding in Him. The Bride knows no walls or man-made denominational lines. When He calls us homeward, there won't be a denomination check box after our name.

Maranatha!

What are you saying, unspun? That the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is just bread and wine? Why don't we just come out say there was no virgin birth and that dead men do not rise from the dead.

Christianity then becomes a Sunday club with a philosophy. No wonder the Protestant movements are splintering ad infinitum.

A miracle honored in the Orthodox faith describes what the Holy Eucharist is.

The Greek Miracles of St. George The miracles will be numbered according to their ennumeration in J. Aufhauser (ed.), Miracula S. Georgii (Leipzig, 1913).

The following translation is taken from Daniel J. Sahas, "What an Infidel Saw that a Faithful Did Not: Gregory Dekapolites (d. 842) and Islam", Greek Orthodox Theological Review 31 (1986), 47-67, by kind permission of the author. It is based on the text at PG 100, cols. 1201-12. It purports to describe how a "Saracen", i.e. a Muslim, noble was converted to Christianity following a vision he experienced in a church dedicated to St. George. J. Aufhauser (ed.), Miracula S. Georgii (Leipzig, 1913), 64-89, contains this and two other versions of the same story, with serious discrepancies between the various versions as to the location of this incident and the name of the author. All seem to derive from an incident in the life of the genuine convert and martyr St. Anthony Ruwah who was martyred under the Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid (786-809) on Christmas Day 799, as does another of the miracles attributed to St. George. See Ignace Dick, "La Passion arabe de S. Antoine Ruwah, néo-martyr de Damas (Ý 25 déc. 799)", Le Muséon 74 (1961), 109-133. Anthony saw a vision of a white lamb and dove during a celebration of the eucharist, not the slaughter of a child, and this took place in a church of St. Theodore, not of St. George, at Damascus.

A HISTORICAL SPEECH OF GREGORY DEKAPOLITES VERY PROFITABLE AND MOST PLEASING IN MANY WAYS, ABOUT A VISION WHICH A SARACEN ONCE HAD, AND WHO, AS A RESULT OF THIS, BELIEVED AND BECAME A MARTYR FOR OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Nicholas, the strategos, called Joulas, has related to me that in his town, which the Saracens call in their language "Vineyard", the Emir of Syria sent his nephew to administer some works [p. 52] under construction in the said castle. In that place there is also a big church, old and splendid, dedicated to Saint, the most glorious martyr, George. When the Saracen saw the church from a distance he ordered his servants to bring his belongings and the camels themselves, twelve of them, inside the church so that he may be able to supervise them from a high place as they were fed.

As for the priests of that venerable church, they pleaded with him saying: "Master, do not do such things; this is a church of God. Do not show disrespect towards it and do not bring the camels inside the holy altar of God."But the Saracen, who was pitiless and stubborn, did not want even to listen to the pleas of the presbyters. Instead he said to his servants, in Arabic: "Do you not do what you have been commanded to do ?" Immediately his servants did as he commanded them. But suddenly the camels, as they were led into the church, all, by the command of God, fell down [p. 53] dead. When the Saracen saw the extraordinary miracle he became ecstatic and ordered his servants to take away the dead camels and throw them away from the church; and they did so.

As it was a holiday on that day and the time for the Divine Liturgy was approaching, the priest who was to start the holy service of preparation of the gifts was very much afraid of the Saracen; how could he start the bloodless sacrifice in front of him ! Another priest, co-communicant to him, said to the priest who was to celebrate the Liturgy: "Do not be afraid. Did you not see the extraordinary miracle ? Why are you hesitant ?" Thus the said priest, without fear, started the holy service of offering.

[p. 54] The Saracen noticed all these and waited to see what the priest was going to do. The priest began the holy service of offering and took the loaf of bread to prepare the holy sacrifice. But the Saracen saw that the priest took in his hand a child which he slaughtered, drained the blood inside the cup, cut the body into pieces, and placed them on the tray !

As the Saracen saw these things he became furious with anger and, enraged at the priest, he wanted to kill him. When the time of the Great Entrance approached, the Saracen saw again, and more manifestly, the child cut into four pieces on the tray, his blood in the cup. He became again ecstatic with rage. Towards the end of the Divine Liturgy, as some of the Christians wanted to receive the holy communion and as the priest said, "With the fear of God and faith draw near," all the Christians bent their [p. 55] heads in reverence. Some of them went forward to receive the holy sacrament. Again, for a third time, the Saracen saw that the priest, with a spoon, was offering to the communicants from the body and the blood of the child. The repentant Christians received the holy sacrament. But the Saracen saw that they had received communion from the body and the blood of the child, and at that he became filled with anger and rage against everybody.

At the end of the Divine Liturgy the priest distributed the antidoron to all Christians. He then took off his priestly vestments and offered to the Srracen a piece from the bread. But he said in Arabic: "What is this ?" The priest answered: "Master, it is from the bread from which we celebrated the liturgy."And the Saracen said angrily: "Did you celebrate the Liturgy from that, you dog, impure, dirty, and killer ? Didn't I see that you took and slaughtered a child, and that you poured his blood into the cup, and mutilated his body and placed on the plate members of his, here and there ? Didn't I see all these, you polluted one and killer ? Didn't I see you eating and drinking from the body and blood of the child, and that you even offered the same to the attendants ? They now have in their mouths pieces of flesh dripping blood."

And the Saracen said: "Is this not what I saw ?" And the priest: "Yes, my Lord, this is how it is; but myself, being a sinner, I am not able to see such a mystery, but only bread and wine as a figuration of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, even the great and marvellous Fathers, the stars and teachers of the Church, like the divine Basil the Great, and the memorable Chrysostom and Gregory the Theologian, were unable to see this awesome and terrifying mystery. How can I see it ?"

When the Saracen heard this he became ecstatic and he ordered his servants and everybody who was inside to leave the church. He then took the priest by the hand and said: "As I see and as I have heard, great is the faith of the Christians. So, if you so will, Father, baptize me. And the priest said to the Sarracen: "Master, we believe in and we confess our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who came to the world for our salvation. We also believe in the Holy Trinity, the consubstantial and undivided one, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the one Godhead. We believe also in Mary, the ever-virgin mother of light, who has given birth to the fruit of life, our pre-announced Lord, Jesus Christ. She was virgin before, virgin during, and virgin after giving birth. We believe also that all the holy apostles, prophets, martyrs, saints, and righteous men are servants of God. Do you not realize, therefore, my master, that the greatest faith is that of the Orthodox Christians ?"

And the Saracen said again: "I beg you, Father, baptize me." But the priest answered: "Far from that. I cannot do such a thing; for if I do and your nephew the Emir hears of that, he will kill me and destry this church, too. But if it is, indeed, your wish to be baptized, go to that place in the Sinai mountain. There, there is the bishop; he will baptize you."

The Saracen prostrated himself in fromt of the presbyter and walked out of the church. Then, one hour after nightfall, he came back to the priest, took off his royal golden clothes, put on a poor sack of wool, and he left in secret by night. He walked to Mount Sinai and there he received the holy baptism from the bishop. He also learned from the Psalter, and he recited verses from it every day.

One day three years later he [the former Saracen] said to the bishop: "Forgive me, Master, what am I supposed to do in order to see Christ ?" And the bishop said: "Pray with the right faith and one of these days you will see Christ, according to your wish." But the former Saracen said again: "Master, give me your consent to go to the priest who offered me instruction when I saw the awesome vision in the church of the most glorious martyr George." The bishop said: "Go, in peace."

Thus, he went to the priest, prostrated himself in front of him, embraced him and said to him: "Do you know, Father, who I am ?" And the priest: "How can I recognize a man whom I have never seen before ?" But, again, the former Saracen said: "Am I not the nephew of the Emir, who brought the camels inside the church and they all died, and who during the Divine Liturgy saw that terrifying vision ?" When the priest looked at him he was amazed and praised God seeing that the former Arab wolf had become a most calm sheep of Christ. He embraced him with passion and invited him to his cell to eat bread.

And the former Saracen said: "Forgive me, Master and Father, but I want and have a desire to see Christ. How can I do that ?" And the priest said: "If you wish to see Christ go to your nephew and preach Christ to him. Curse and anathematize the faith of the Saracens and their false prophet Muhammad and preach correctly the true faith of the Christians without fear, and thus you will see Christ."

The former Saracen left in earnest. By night he was knocking at the door of the Saracen forcefully. The guards at the gate of the house of the Emir asked: "Who is yelling and knocking at the door ?" And he answered: "I am the nephew of the Emir who left some time ago and was lost. Now I want to see my nephew and tell him something." The guards of the gate conveyed this to the Saracen immediately: "Master, it is your nephew who left some time ago and was lost." The Emir, heaving a sigh, said: "Where is he ?" They said: "At the gate of the palace." He then ordered his servants to go and meet him with lights and candles. They all did as the king, Emir, commanded and they took the monk, the former Saracen, by the hand and presented him to the Emir, his nephew.

When the Emir saw him, he was very glad. He embraced him with tears in his eyes and said to him: "What is this ? Where were you living all this time ? Aren't you my nephew ?" And the monk said: "Don't you recognize me, your nephew ? Now, as you see, by the Grace of God the Most High I have become a Christian and a monk. I have been living in desert places so that I may inherit [p. 60] the Kingdom of Heaven. I hope in the unspeakable compassion of the All-sovereign God to inherit his kingdom. Why are you hesitating yourself, too, Emir ? Receive the holy baptism of the Orthodox Christians in order to inherit eternal life, as I hope to do."

The Emir laughed, scratched his head and said: "What are you chattering about, you miserable one; what are you chattering ? What has happened to you ? Alas, you pitiful one ! How did you abandon your life and the sceptres of reign and roam around as a beggar, dressed in these filthy clothes made of hair ?"

The monk responded to him: "By the grace of God. As far as all the things I used to have when I was a Saracen, these were [material] property and were of the devil. But these things that you see me wearing are a glory and pride, and an engagement with the future and eternal life. I anathematize the religion of the Saracens and their false prophet."

Then the Emir said: "Take him out, for he does not know what he is chattering about." They took him away and put him in a place in the palace where they gave him food and drink. And he spent three days there, but he took neither food nor drink. He was praying to God earnestly and with faith. Going down to his knees he said: "O Lord, I have hoped in thee, let me never be ashamed, neither let my enemies laugh at me to scorn." And again: "Have mercy on me, O God, according to thy steadfast love; according to thy abundant mercy blot out my transgressions." And again: "Enlighten my eyes, Lord God, that I may not fall asleep into death; that my enemy may never say, 'I have overpowered him'. 'Strengthen my heart, O Lord,' so that I may be able to fight the visible deceiver, the Saracen; so that the evil devil may not stamp on me and make me fear death, for your holy name." He then made the sign of the cross and said: "The Lord is my enlightenment and my saviour. Whom shall I fear ? The Lord is the protector of my life. From whom will I hesitate ?" And again he cried out to the Emir: "Receive holy baptism in order to gain the immeasurable kingdom of God."

Again the Emir gave orders for him to be brought in front of him. He had prepared for him clothes exceedingly beautiful. And [p. 61] the Emir spoke: "Enjoy, you pitiful one, enjoy and rejoice for being a king. Do not disdain your life and your youth which is so beautiful, walking instead mindlessly like a beggar and a penniless one. Alas, you pitiful one. What do you think ?"

The monk laughed and replied to the Emir: "Do not weep at what I have in mind. I am thinking how to be able to fulfil the work of my Christ and that of the Father priest who has sent me, and has been my teacher. As for the clothes you have prepared for me, sell them and give the money to the poor. You, too, should abandon the temporary sceptres of the reign, so that you may receive sceptres of an eternal life. Do not rest your hope on things of the present but on things which are of the future, and do not believe in the pseudo-prophet Muhammad, the impure, the detestable one, the son of hell. Believe, rather, in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the crucified one. Believe that the one Godhead is a consubstantial Trinity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a Trinity of the same essence, and undivided."

The Emir laughed again and said to the officials who had gathered in the palace: "This man is mindless. What shall we do with him ? Take him out and expel him." Those, however, sitting by the king said: "He meant to desecrate and corrupt the religion of the Saracens. Do you not hear how he curses anathematizes our great prophet ?"

The monk and former Saracen cried out loudly: "I feel sorry for you Emir because you, unfortunate one, do not want to be saved. Believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, the crucified one, and anathematize the religion of the Saracens and their false prophet, as I did."

And the Saracen Emir said: "Take him out as I am ordering you. He is mindless and does not know what he is talking about."

Those sitting by with him said: "Well, you heard that he anathematized the religion of the Saracens and that he is blaspheming against the great prophet, and you say, 'He does not know what he is talking about' ? If you do not have him killed we will also go and become Christians."

And the Emir said: "I cannot have him killed because he is my nephew and I feel sorry for him. But you take him and do as you please."

And they got hold of the monk with great anger, they dragged him out of the palace and submitted him to many tortures [p. 62] to try to make him return to the previous religion of the Saracens. But he did not. Instead he was teaching everybody in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to believe and be saved.

The Saracens dragged him out of the city, and there they stoned him to death this most pious monk, whose name was Pachomios.

On that night a star came down from heaven and rested on top of the most pious martyr, and everybody was able to see it for forty days; and many of them became believers.

With the prayers of the most blessed martyr, of the all-pure Mother of God Mary, who is ever-virgin, and of all of the saints; for the remission of our sins. Amen.

What are you saying, unspun? That the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist is just bread and wine? Why don't we just come out say there was no virgin birth and that dead men do not rise from the dead.

Thank you for the material, Destro. I hope to read it soon.

No, I'm not saying that at all, although I am saying that there is nothhing that causes me to believe that these elements change into material that would mean we are canibals. Neither am I saying that that our bodies, the Temple of the Holy Spirit are just carbon-based complexities (though they are that). I am saying that Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world and that the bodies we have as well as the food we eat, are of the cursed, perishing world. As Jesus told Nicodemus, those who accept Him are born of the Spirit, not ones who crawl back into our mothers' wombs.

But, I don't think this particular point of what happens to the physical bread and wine is what is utterly important (and that's also my point).

Blessings!

The Greeks called it meta-physical....

Here is a Catholic site's perspective on the Eastern Orthodox for anyone intersted: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ23.HTM

The Greeks called it meta-physical....

I do believe that we are mandated by God to engage in rites of believer's baptism and the Communion of the New Covenant. He is certainly present there!

Have you ever studied the OT covenant rite, signified by sharing bread and wine (e.g., Melchizedek & Abraham) also performed at the engagement and wedding feast of Hebrews? Fascinating stuff!

We also recall how Jesus said His body is and is not our bread and how His blood is our salvation. It's about who He is and what He has done for us! (Not about what rite we perform.) The former is the celebration of the prior "...in rememberance of Me."

The "ritual" as you called it was acted out by Jesus himself. This was carried out by the Apostles themselves who taught their designated successors the meaning of the holy Eucharist and how to prepare it. Some Greeks a few centuries later did not make this up as some Protestants like to think. The strength of Orthodoxy is it goes back right to Jesus and his Apostles DIRECTLY.

Right. Now, it is critical to understand from Scripture exactly why Jesus (God eternal come in the flesh, "Before Abraham, I AM," and initiator of our salvation) told us to engage in this practice.

I was into Francis Schaeffer when I was a charismatic, and the last book by Franky that I bought was his Christian Manifesto.

You've got the wrong Schaeffer. "Christian Manifesto" was written by Francis Schaeffer, father of Franky. That was the last book he penned before his death. Still powerful, still relevant.

I wonder why God asked images of Angels to be made? and for the Arc to be venerated then?

Interestingly enough, however, the Ark was hidden from view of the people during its actual "use" and then only the high priest actually saw it. No one was supposed to even touch it.

I would also argue that it wasn't the Ark itself that was "venerated" although it was considered sanctified, holy, set apart for sacred use. When the Israelites sought to "venerate" it by taking it into battle thinking it would bless their efforts, they were soundly routed and the Ark was taken as part of the spoils of war.

When the Ark was recovered, the celebration is worship and thanksgiving to God for His mercy, not an elevation of the Ark.

Additionally, OT rituals and worship were shadows of what was to come in Christ, but Christ is the substance, the exact image (icon) of the invisible God (Col 1:15). I think it's difficult to justify veneration of images based on tabernacle or temple worship. Hebrews tells us that the tabernacle was a reflection of heaven, so the images there represented veneration given to God who met His people in that earthly place.

What did his father preach that makes you unsurprised the younger Schaeffer converted? I read Schaeffer's book and thought it strange he never wrote about his father's reaction to his coversion. In fact, I don't remeber Schaefer evene mentioning his father in his book.

I am a ROman Catholic who admires Orthodoxy, but I agree with you. I've long been puzzled by the Orhtodox Churches' relative reticence on abortion, as well as their involvement in the World Council of Churches. What gives?

images there represented veneration given to God who met His people in that earthly place.

and was not the Word made flesh?

I'm not sure I caught what your criptic comment was getting at but I'll respond to what I think you meant.

The Word was God. We worship, venerate, adore, honor, etc. Jesus Christ not because he is flesh but because he is God in the flesh. In Him is fullness of the Godhead bodily.

We are on diff wave lengths. Since an aspect of the Trinity came to us in human form, then what was once unknowable and unshowable (the Godhead) became flesh to be seen, touched, painted, recorded. The proscription on images no longer applied beyond making sure that the image only served as a visual refrence to veneration and not a substitution for what is being venerated.

I guess that is my layman's attempt.

Icons are as old as the Church - See Jesus Fish.

I've long been puzzled by the Orhtodox Churches' relative reticence on abortion, as well as their involvement in the World Council of Churches. What gives?

It's not easy for the Orthodox faithful to get any answers out of the hierarchy, believe me. We are talking cliquish/hierarchical/. Aabortion is a sin(but you won't get too many priests speaking out against it from the pulpit). I have tried to communicate with the Archdiocese manyntimes on their political stances, on WCC, on abortion, etc. but never get a reply beyond the usual pleasantries. I was particularly disappointed in the church giving awards to people like Sarbanes and Snowe - these are staunch pro infanticide types - and let them know it - but I got no response. I guess ethnicity and appeasing the powerful trumps morality.

Not much different from the Catholic Church is it?