Shuttle Lost Parts Over Calif. (finally confirming what amateur skywatchers from Day One said)

ap ^ | 2/18/2002 | MARCIA DUNN

[TLBSHOW]

Board: Shuttle Lost Parts Over Calif.

SPACE CENTER, Houston - Space shuttle Columbia began losing pieces over the California coast well before it disintegrated over Texas, the accident investigation board reported Tuesday, finally confirming what astronomers and amateur skywatchers have been saying from Day One.

But board member James Hallock, a physicist and chief of the Transportation Department's aviation safety division, said the fragments were probably so small they burned up before reaching the ground.

He said the conclusion that the space shuttle was shedding pieces a full six minutes before it came apart over Texas was based on images of the doomed flight. Astronomers and amateurs on the West Coast photographed and videotaped the shuttle's final minutes.

"Obviously, it would be very important to understand what those pieces are, particularly the ones that started falling off at the very beginning," because they would shed light on the earliest stages of the breakup, he said.

However, Hallock said the pieces that came off early did not seem to be very big, judging from the light reflected off them.

"For us to find something that far back along the path, I think it's going to have to be a pretty substantial piece of the shuttle itself," he said.

Moreover, he added: "That's a lot of area to be looking. ... We have the Grand Canyon area and all of the areas of Southern California, the mountainous area and stuff like this, that even if we could home in on some of these things, it's going to be very difficult to find it. But we sure would like to see it."

In their second news conference in as many weeks, the board members also said they are not convinced the debris that hit the left wing shortly after liftoff on Jan. 16 was insulating foam from the external fuel tank. It is possible the debris was actually ice or much heavier insulating material behind the foam, they said.

Hallock said the suspected breach in Columbia's left wing had to have been bigger than a pinhole, in order to allow the superheated gases surrounding the ship to penetrate the hull.

In other news:

_ The board said it hopes to hold its first public hearing next week, possibly on Feb. 27, to listen to non-NASA (news - web sites) experts who have theories about what destroyed the shuttle. The hearing will be held somewhere in the Houston area. The board has been criticized by some U.S. lawmakers as being too closely tied to NASA.

"We will invite experts who are not associated with any U.S. government program who have theories or hypothesis, who have written to us or provided research documents, to express to us their opinions," said board chairman Harold Gehman Jr., a retired Navy admiral. "That way we get input ... not by any government agency."

_ The board split into three teams Tuesday — materials, operations and technology — and began delving into what may have caused a breach in the shuttle's left wing.

_ An Air Force telescope in Maui took pictures of Columbia as the shuttle orbited overhead during its mission. Gehman said the images were being analyzed and it was too soon to know whether they may hold clues to the shuttle's demise.

_ An external fuel tank identical to the one used by Columbia has been impounded at the Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans and will be tested. If any destructive testing is performed, engineers need to be careful because "we only get one shot at it," Gehman said.

_ Nearly 4,000 pieces of debris have been shipped to Florida's Kennedy Space Center (news - web sites), of which 2,600 have been identified and cataloged, Gehman said. Investigators hope to partially assemble the pieces to help them figure out what happened to the space shuttle. An additional 10,000 pieces are headed to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana and Kennedy.

It is impossible to calculate how much of Columbia the recovered pieces represent, the board said. In terms of weight, it represents only a tiny portion because so much of the wreckage is small, like fragments of insulation.

In the more than two weeks since the tragedy, the NASA-appointed board has publicly put forth just one hypothesis: that the superheated gases surrounding the spaceship during its descent through the atmosphere penetrated the left wing.

Still a major focus of the investigation is the supposed 2 1/2-pound chunk of rigid insulating foam that broke off Columbia's external fuel tank shortly after liftoff and slammed into the left wing at more than 500 mph.

NASA concluded while Columbia was still in orbit that any damage caused by the foam was slight and posed no safety threat. But engineers are now redoing their analysis to see if they made a mistake or missed something.

Air Force Maj. Gen. John Barry, a member of the investigating board, identified four previous launches, as far back as 1983, in which foam from the same part of the fuel tank struck a shuttle's thermal tiles. "We've got some backtracking to do," he said.

The board has yet to order any foam or thermal tile impact tests, Gehman said. Over the years, NASA has shot .22-caliber bullets, BB pellets and even ice at tiles, and the board wants to read up on this "enormous library of testing" first, he said.

"Before we go ordering NASA to do things, the first thing we're doing is getting smart," Gehman said.

The board began its work within hours of Columbia's breakup on Feb. 1. The shuttle was traveling at 18 times the speed of sound and was just minutes away from a Florida touchdown when contact was lost. All seven astronauts aboard were killed.

The newest member of the 10-person panel, former Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall, will join her colleagues later this week. Additional members are being sought to include more scientific experts and quell criticism from members of Congress who contend the board is not independent enough of NASA.

[1rudeboy]

That's not true. I remember you having your panties all in a wad because NASA hadn't confirmed the photo to be fake. Say, have they yet?

[TLBSHOW]

You have it wrong I couldn't of cared less about the picture, except to confirm that it came from a legit news site. And the fact NASA never said it was a fake at the time. Find where I ever posted it more than twice and I will eat my words. but....

Still I have not heard if it was confirmed from NASA fake or real. Good question.

[NJJ]

Where are all the NASA defenders on this thread?

We are all still here. We are still sorting out all the new information as it comes in. I don't recall defenders saying it couldn't be the foam. They were saying that the numbers didn't add up and until they do, it won't be an acceptable explanation. What someone has to do is construct a scenario that "cooks" the numbers right.

A possible example may be that an impact at a leading edge carbon-carbon joint may have damaged a seal, leading to failure.

Another possibility may be that the foam impacting the tile or leading edge surfaces may have caused impurities to have adhered to the surface and these could have created hot spots to initiate a TPS failure. During the cold war, one defense against ICBM warheads was to explode tar in front of the incoming warheads. Particles of tar would adhere to the warhead and upon reentry they would create hot spots and defeat the thermal protection shield.

Should someone come up with an explanation that makes the foam insulation numbers come up right, NASA would be the first to confirm it, and with great appreciation.

[Captain Beyond]

"Space shuttle Columbia began losing pieces over the California coast well before it disintegrated over Texas, the accident investigation board reported Tuesday, finally confirming what astronomers and amateur skywatchers have been saying from Day One."

[bonesmccoy]

thanks for the great ping.

This article confirms our conjecture and our direction in the past week on FR.

We were making similar calculations of mass and momentum based upon video. We were also making estimates of the location of fallen pieces.

Hope the NASA guys will release maps and let us go looking on their behalf.

NASA is a citizen's space program. We should be treated as partners, not excluded like back seaters.

[TLBSHOW]

"We will invite experts who are not associated with any U.S. government program who have theories or hypothesis, who have written to us or provided research documents, to express to us their opinions," said board chairman Harold Gehman Jr., a retired Navy admiral. "That way we get input ... not by any government agency."

[bonesmccoy]

May be we should show up!

[TLBSHOW]

The board said it hopes to hold its first public hearing next week, possibly on Feb. 27, to listen to non-NASA (news - web sites) experts who have theories about what destroyed the shuttle. The hearing will be held somewhere in the Houston area. The board has been criticized by some U.S. lawmakers as being too closely tied to NASA.

[TLBSHOW]

They should of listened to this guy instead they shunned him.

http://www.nasaproblems.com/

Don A. Nelson is an aerospace writer. He retired from NASA in January 1999 after 36 years with the Agency. He participated in the Gemini, Apollo, Skylab, and Space Shuttle Projects as a mission planner and operations technologist. Mr. Nelson was a supporting team member for the first rendezvous in space, first manned mission to the moon, first manned lunar landing, and the first flight of the Space Shuttle. During his last 11 years at NASA, he served as a mission operations evaluator for proposed advanced space transportation projects. He was on the initial design team for the space shuttle. He has participated in every shuttle upgrade effort until his retirement.

July 1999 - Space Shuttle Columbia delayed by hydrogen leak.

December 1999 - Space Shuttle Discovery was grounded with damaged wiring, contaminated engine, dented fuel line, and paper work errors.

January 2000 - Space Shuttle Endeavor is delayed because of wiring and computer failures.

March 2000 - Space Shuttle Atlantis main engine must be replaced because of paperwork errors.

August 2000 - Inspection of Space Shuttle Columbia reveals 3,500 defects in wiring. Wiring defects plague entire fleet.

October 2000 - The 100th flight of the space shuttle was delayed because of a misplaced safety pin and concerns with the external tank.

April 2001 - NASA failed to keep adequate watch on safety operations of a major contractor.

July 2002 - The inspector general reports that space shuttle safety program not properly managed.

April 2002 - Hydrogen leak forces scrub of the Atlantis flight.

August 2002 - Shuttle launch system grounded after fuel line cracks are discovered in all the fleet!

[Cold Heat]

I suppose we could compile our relevant data along with a synopsis to whatever e-mail address they provide and give them some contact numbers and real names.

Maybe we would get a invitation. I suppose getting access to property etc. would be a problem without some sort of credentials. Those folk who live in that area are not exactly friendly with trespassers.(From personal experience)

[TLBSHOW]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The independent probe of the shuttle Columbia disaster will ask pointed questions about NASA's budget and whether the space agency let too many safety workers go, the head of the inquiry said on Tuesday.

Howard Gehman, who heads the Columbia Accident Investigation Board, said the panel will look at NASA's budget, which has remained essentially flat for the last decade and is around $15 billion annually.

Rather than take aim at the numbers, however, Gehman said his board will focus on the impact of tight money for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

"I would go after an effects-based approach -- that is, were employees laid off? Were supervisory positions eliminated? Were quality-assurance, were risk management people laid off? -- rather than the budget number," Gehman said at a televised briefing.

"We'll see where that leads us," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030218_520.html

[Cold Heat]

This is likely coming from the people at Michoud, who make the tank. They have stated that the quality control has suffered in recent years.

One supervisor started a reward program for noted discrepancies. They discovered that people were creating discrepancies in order to collect the rewards. Usually a t-shirt or something.

The supervisor stated that "it was amazing what people would do for a T-shirt".

[Joe Hadenuf]

Oh man.......

[Cold Heat]

Bruce Wright, a quality assurance supervisor who spent more than 22 years at Lockheed, believes he inspected the external fuel tank that helped launch Columbia.

He said he noted "bare metal'' during his 2000 inspection of the bi-pod area, the place where the shuttle is connected to the external tank by two pod-like legs. That is the spot where foam came off the Columbia at launch.

The "concern was the primer, that it was not a continuous job and was not fully covering the bare metal,'' he said.

Wright said the bare metal he noticed came at a stage where it was easily repaired, and that sometimes spots are intentionally left bare in order to install nuts and bolts and other necessary hardware.

"But the primer applied had not fully covered the bare metal. They had some failures which is not normal because unless the primer is applied correctly, the foam will eat the aluminum,'' he said.

When mistakes were made, the company sometimes avoided filing discrepancy reports to NASA, some inspectors said.

SNIP


Here is a bit more from Michoud.

[Captain Beyond]

Yeah it was really cool how it turned out for FR. Congratulations to Leadpenny and to you for sticking to your guns on this one and having a really thick skin. You were taking some serious slings and arrows. Besides the two long threads I think there were a total of 8 threads that night and you were really catching heat on all of them and on into the next day. I hope some of the articles I sent helped you out.

[Joe Hadenuf]

When mistakes were made, the company sometimes avoided filing discrepancy reports to NASA, some inspectors said.

This does not surprise me......

[Cold Heat]

The Michoud facility is in my old stomping grounds. I never worked for them, but drank plenty of beers with some of the habds there. They were not a happy lot, but were certainly well paid for it.

[Cold Heat]

habds=hands...........sheesh, goin to bed now.

[lonewacko_dot_com]

I occasionally go out to SoCal's mountains. Is there a map showing where parts might have fallen, so I can know if I should look around where I go?

[Captain Beyond]

My hat is off to you. You are a better man than most. I could not believe how some people were acting over this. They were so adamant that the shuttle could not have broken up over California. What I think happen was TLBSHOW posted the letter from Don Nelson to President Bush outlining his problems with the shuttle program. The letter did not bash W at all. But out of fear of criticism of Bush and that somehow this would link W to the Columbia accident the Bushbots went into overdrive with their spin machine when there was no need to spin at all. First of all no main stream politician was going to commit political suicide by blaming the President for the Columbia accident. The American public would not stand for it. Secondly everyone knows that the President does not, nor is expected to, oversee the shuttle liftoff and retrieval. All he can do is rely on his advisers and the personal at NASA to do the best jobs that they can. Unless it is a mission he has authorized personally or he has vital information in his hands that there is problem he is not going to be involved in the day to day operations of NASA.

After the Don Nelson letter posting no matter what TLBSHOW said he was dogged piled. Most of the threads after that were nothing but flame wars with some good articles and observations about the shuttle being posted on them. But one had to sort through a lot of crap to find them.