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Shuttle Lost Parts Over Calif. (finally confirming what amateur skywatchers from Day One said)
ap ^ | 2/18/2002 | MARCIA DUNN

Posted on 02/18/2003 7:23:50 PM PST by TLBSHOW

Board: Shuttle Lost Parts Over Calif.

SPACE CENTER, Houston - Space shuttle Columbia began losing pieces over the California coast well before it disintegrated over Texas, the accident investigation board reported Tuesday, finally confirming what astronomers and amateur skywatchers have been saying from Day One.

But board member James Hallock, a physicist and chief of the Transportation Department's aviation safety division, said the fragments were probably so small they burned up before reaching the ground.

He said the conclusion that the space shuttle was shedding pieces a full six minutes before it came apart over Texas was based on images of the doomed flight. Astronomers and amateurs on the West Coast photographed and videotaped the shuttle's final minutes.

"Obviously, it would be very important to understand what those pieces are, particularly the ones that started falling off at the very beginning," because they would shed light on the earliest stages of the breakup, he said.

However, Hallock said the pieces that came off early did not seem to be very big, judging from the light reflected off them.

"For us to find something that far back along the path, I think it's going to have to be a pretty substantial piece of the shuttle itself," he said.

Moreover, he added: "That's a lot of area to be looking. ... We have the Grand Canyon area and all of the areas of Southern California, the mountainous area and stuff like this, that even if we could home in on some of these things, it's going to be very difficult to find it. But we sure would like to see it."

In their second news conference in as many weeks, the board members also said they are not convinced the debris that hit the left wing shortly after liftoff on Jan. 16 was insulating foam from the external fuel tank. It is possible the debris was actually ice or much heavier insulating material behind the foam, they said.

Hallock said the suspected breach in Columbia's left wing had to have been bigger than a pinhole, in order to allow the superheated gases surrounding the ship to penetrate the hull.

In other news:

_ The board said it hopes to hold its first public hearing next week, possibly on Feb. 27, to listen to non-NASA (news - web sites) experts who have theories about what destroyed the shuttle. The hearing will be held somewhere in the Houston area. The board has been criticized by some U.S. lawmakers as being too closely tied to NASA.

"We will invite experts who are not associated with any U.S. government program who have theories or hypothesis, who have written to us or provided research documents, to express to us their opinions," said board chairman Harold Gehman Jr., a retired Navy admiral. "That way we get input ... not by any government agency."

_ The board split into three teams Tuesday — materials, operations and technology — and began delving into what may have caused a breach in the shuttle's left wing.

_ An Air Force telescope in Maui took pictures of Columbia as the shuttle orbited overhead during its mission. Gehman said the images were being analyzed and it was too soon to know whether they may hold clues to the shuttle's demise.

_ An external fuel tank identical to the one used by Columbia has been impounded at the Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans and will be tested. If any destructive testing is performed, engineers need to be careful because "we only get one shot at it," Gehman said.

_ Nearly 4,000 pieces of debris have been shipped to Florida's Kennedy Space Center (news - web sites), of which 2,600 have been identified and cataloged, Gehman said. Investigators hope to partially assemble the pieces to help them figure out what happened to the space shuttle. An additional 10,000 pieces are headed to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana and Kennedy.

It is impossible to calculate how much of Columbia the recovered pieces represent, the board said. In terms of weight, it represents only a tiny portion because so much of the wreckage is small, like fragments of insulation.

In the more than two weeks since the tragedy, the NASA-appointed board has publicly put forth just one hypothesis: that the superheated gases surrounding the spaceship during its descent through the atmosphere penetrated the left wing.

Still a major focus of the investigation is the supposed 2 1/2-pound chunk of rigid insulating foam that broke off Columbia's external fuel tank shortly after liftoff and slammed into the left wing at more than 500 mph.

NASA concluded while Columbia was still in orbit that any damage caused by the foam was slight and posed no safety threat. But engineers are now redoing their analysis to see if they made a mistake or missed something.

Air Force Maj. Gen. John Barry, a member of the investigating board, identified four previous launches, as far back as 1983, in which foam from the same part of the fuel tank struck a shuttle's thermal tiles. "We've got some backtracking to do," he said.

The board has yet to order any foam or thermal tile impact tests, Gehman said. Over the years, NASA has shot .22-caliber bullets, BB pellets and even ice at tiles, and the board wants to read up on this "enormous library of testing" first, he said.

"Before we go ordering NASA to do things, the first thing we're doing is getting smart," Gehman said.

The board began its work within hours of Columbia's breakup on Feb. 1. The shuttle was traveling at 18 times the speed of sound and was just minutes away from a Florida touchdown when contact was lost. All seven astronauts aboard were killed.

The newest member of the 10-person panel, former Air Force Secretary Sheila Widnall, will join her colleagues later this week. Additional members are being sought to include more scientific experts and quell criticism from members of Congress who contend the board is not independent enough of NASA.


TOPICS: Government
KEYWORDS: astronomers; caib; california; columbiatragedy; feb12003; nasa; shuttledebris; spaceshuttle
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To: Joe Hadenuf
Large craft like the space shuttle and the Concorde produce double sonic booms caused by bow shock and wake shock.

I recall that we wanted to mute some of the wild speculation that was going on, though I don't recall much of the intensity that you describe.

I noted the above, because a few weeks ago I was talking with an actual "rocket scientist" who works for the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Laurel, Maryland.

Anyway, he didn't know about the double sonic booms, as noted above, and was speculating about debris based on reports of the double booms. He also didn't know about the strange behavior that plasma sometimes exhibits on re-entry.

This is why

21 posted on 02/18/2003 8:18:34 PM PST by jimtorr
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To: TLBSHOW
Todd, this is old news isn't it?

Thanks for the flag.
22 posted on 02/18/2003 8:21:50 PM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: TLBSHOW
I remember having read the early report of the sighting from California here in Freeperland. I am grateful for Free Republic and also very proud (in the humble manner) to be part of such an informed group of citizens. THANKS JIM and thanks all who contribute the truth.
23 posted on 02/18/2003 8:23:13 PM PST by Hila
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To: Fred Mertz
lol for some of us its really old!
24 posted on 02/18/2003 8:23:36 PM PST by TLBSHOW (God Speed as Angels trending upward dare to fly Tribute to the Risk Takers)
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To: Captain Beyond
I believe I retracted a post I made, when I began to think that the reports indicated that she was breaking up over Calif.

That was on the Sunday after she crashed.

25 posted on 02/18/2003 8:23:48 PM PST by don-o
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To: AndyJackson
I want to know who is the Dick Feynman on this panel.

Dream on... You wish...

They might do OK anyway, though. They've got their last bad example to not follow.

26 posted on 02/18/2003 8:29:17 PM PST by fire_eye
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To: jimtorr
I recall that we wanted to mute some of the wild speculation that was going on, though I don't recall much of the intensity that you describe.

There was a few different threads where things got slightly heated over speculation on where the spacecraft started experiencing trouble, and actually breaking up.

In any event, I personally, after hearing the reports from several in California, including the people in the SF and Bishop area, noted at the time that they sounded extremely credible when I first heard the radio reports of their observations. I knew, they were not just not your average garden varity witnesses.

27 posted on 02/18/2003 8:29:57 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Joe Hadenuf
I knew, they were not just your average garden varity witnesses.

That too.....

28 posted on 02/18/2003 8:31:42 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: TLBSHOW
I don't know if anyone read the following concerning the external fuel tank foam:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77832,00.html

--begin excerpt--

Until 1997, Columbia’s external fuel tanks were insulated with a Freon-based foam. Freon is a chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) supposedly linked with ozone depletion and phased out of widespread use under the international treaty known as the Montreal Protocol.

Despite that the Freon-based foam worked well and that an exemption from the CFC phase-out could have been obtained, NASA succumbed to political correctness. The agency substituted an allegedly more eco-friendly foam for the Freon-based foam.

PC-foam was an immediate problem.

The first mission with PC-foam resulted in 11 times more damaged thermal tiles on Columbia than the previous mission with the Freon-based foam.

A Dec. 23, 1997, diary entry on the NASA Web site reported: “308 hits were counted during the inspection, 132 were greater than 1-inch. Some of the hits measured 15 inches long, with depths measuring up to 1.5 inches. Considering that the depth of a tile is 2 inches, a 75 percent penetration depth had been reached.”

--end excerpt--
29 posted on 02/18/2003 8:35:15 PM PST by Lord Basil
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To: Joe Hadenuf
This one maybe? Space Shuttle Columbia Disaster Archive
30 posted on 02/18/2003 8:45:34 PM PST by Resolute
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To: tubebender
LOL! We had these things nailed down on the 3rd or 4th of FEB. Our assessment was that they were too small to have survived to the ground.(via XBob)

When are we going to NM to find the big piece?

31 posted on 02/18/2003 8:50:40 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: wirestripper
BUMP
32 posted on 02/18/2003 8:52:41 PM PST by TLBSHOW (God Speed as Angels trending upward dare to fly Tribute to the Risk Takers)
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To: wirestripper
When are we going to NM to find the big piece?

As soon as I learn to pilot a ultralite. BTW, Dittemore said from day one they were interested in finding debris in Calif. Did you hear about the photos taken at a obsevatory in Hawai ?

33 posted on 02/18/2003 8:56:07 PM PST by tubebender (?)
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To: tubebender
I had not heard about the photos surfacing, but someone said somewhere, that Hawaii was in the loop on the re-entry.
34 posted on 02/18/2003 8:58:54 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Resolute
That's it. Thanks......
35 posted on 02/18/2003 9:01:18 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: TLBSHOW
How ling long do you think it will take to get an apology for all the grief you took when this was first proposed? :-)
36 posted on 02/18/2003 9:06:07 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
I have 2 quotes from when I have asked this same question...

when pigs fly

and

when hell freezes over

LOL

that is alright, as I always tell the non-believers and anti-TLBSHOW people, time is on my side and the truth will come out in the end, it may be a day later or a week, a month or year but it will come out that I was right....
Thanks for asking :>)


37 posted on 02/18/2003 9:15:14 PM PST by TLBSHOW (God Speed as Angels trending upward dare to fly Tribute to the Risk Takers)
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Where all all the NASA defenders on this thread? The ones calling this a rush to judgment over tile damage, a left wing problem, and a breakup earlier than Texas. Seems the so-called AMATEURS know more than NASA bureaucrats and expert defenders on FR do. As I've said previously, NASA is not made of the right stuff anymore.
38 posted on 02/18/2003 9:18:15 PM PST by VRWC For Truth
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To: Captain Beyond; TLBSHOW
When what exactly was first suggested? I remember TLBSHOW spamming Ford TriMotor photos.
39 posted on 02/18/2003 9:40:18 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: 1rudeboy
What ever did happen with the Drudge-report picture or was that a world net daily picture or wait was that a picture from some site from Israel? Anyways that was later that week. We are talking about post 4 and the link in it on this thread.

I said that picture was nothing and not the point to anything. And it wasn't spam because I only posted it twice. LOL
40 posted on 02/18/2003 9:51:10 PM PST by TLBSHOW (God Speed as Angels trending upward dare to fly Tribute to the Risk Takers)
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